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YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

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Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Almost free speech is censorship by another name. Working "pretty well?" Sure, unless one tries to talk about things that really matter and strays outside the dotted lines of permissibility. Some topics are verboten. When you say "other side of the ocean," I assume you're talking about Europe. Try to discuss the muslim rape gangs in the UK. Try to discuss the surge in grenade attacks and many-fold increase…

I had to google the UK and France stuff. Seems to be, as bad as they are, well covered single cases (one group of rapists in the UK and a couple of riots in Dijon). So what exactly are you not "allowed" to discuss?

There are a lot more than one case in the UK. The fact you can only find one seems that the cover up has worked.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/839509/Britain-towns-citie...

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#882
post #849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because you don't know what you don't know, and you won't find out if you don't allow dissent.

"Almost free speech" doesn't necessarily mean dissent isn't allowed

Almost. Who decides what "almost" is?

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#883
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bullshit is easier to make than truth Of course, but truth wins out over the long run. > If normal well researched content had to compete with that, it would loose by being buried under the sheer mass of bot generated bullshit. How do you stay above it all? It's not censored now but you seem able to detect it and protect yourself. > A lot of conspiracy theorists aren't above threatening violence That is censorship,…

>Of course, but truth wins out over the long run. I doubt that, and if that was even the case, until then lies can do a lot of damage. >How do you stay above it all? It's not censored now but you seem able to detect it and protect yourself. I don't. Sometimes I get fed bullshit and believe it. I'm certain there is things I believe right now that are lies. Sometimes I find out a more proper explanation, sometimes I ne…

> I doubt that, and if that was even the case, until then lies can do a lot of damage.

Strangely, it's only the proponents of censorship that claim it will lead to utopia.

> Censorship is enacted by government, not private individuals.

This is not true at all. Free speech is not a synonym for the US 1st amendment. That part of the constitution only protects government interference, which implies that there can be other types, and there's more than one country in the world. Are you really going to claim that social media companies cannot censor?

> Besides, they are smart enough to never call for violence directly. They say "I wish someone would call SWAT on this guy" or "this kinda behaviour ends you with a broken nose wink wink".

This sounds to me like conspiracy theory talk, as does the bit about rich people. I'm sure both happen but to paint everything or everyone that way lacks nuance at best and sounds like something you'd hear from a quack in a tinfoil hat at worst.

> In the US, a lawsuit isn't about who is right but who has enough money to keep the lawsuit going for longer.

This is partly true, but it is no doubt true that the law - explicit as it is - states the opposite. Again, who was claiming that the system was perfect?

> Disrespectful and violent speech is not free speech, it's violence.

> Reread, I don't conflate them.

If you didn't then you just have. I suspect you, either knowingly or unknowingly wish to tie disrespect to violence because it's convenient for arguing against disrespectful speech being free. Well, SCOTUS has ruled that even some forms of "violent speech" are covered by the 1st amendment (speech containing threats must be credible and imminent to lose coverage), disrespect is definitely covered.

Can I blashpheme or is that too disrespectful? Is satire allowed or is that too disrespecful? Would I be committing violent acts by dismissing God? I'd expect that kind of talk from religious fundamentalists.

> It doesn't have to be infallible, just reasonably provable or not disprovable

You're circling back to a court system with judges, but…

> If you're lying on purpose then this entire point is moot anyway, no need to prove anything. Then you're just out for harm.

…you appear to have discarded presumption of innocence along the way. Terrifying.

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More freedom of speech is the answer to misinformation because then it can be challenged. Censorship allows convenient mistruths to spread unchallenged.

That’s what it does at its best. At its worst it’s a tool to allow oppressive governments to conceal the truth and further their grip on power.

I'd say there was a stronger relationship between governments that censor and those that oppress. Which oppressive governments are using free speech to conceal the truth?

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More freedom of speech is the answer to misinformation because then it can be challenged. Censorship allows convenient mistruths to spread unchallenged.

The issues of fake news and misinformation have come about because the freedom of speech at scale that the internet and sites like Youtube enables. What we're experiencing is the limit of freedom of speech. It used to be that at scale things were controlled by the media and governments because they had the monopoly on the infrastructure required, which was costly. You can say that this enabled a level of censorship,…

> What we're experiencing is the limit of freedom of speech.

What we're experiencing is what happened with the printing press and every communication technology since - the democritisation of communication. That always leads to unrest because it moves power towards the masses.

> You can say that this enabled a level of censorship, but that also enabled to filter a lot of noise.

I would say that because it did, but on the noise point, I cannot listen to or read more than I did then, I only have 24 hours in a day. I can choose from more sources but the volume has not gone up. I am the filter now - should I not be?

Are you going to tell me what I should read and listen to? I have to tell you that I think I can do a better job that you at that, thanks all the same.

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#886
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course, but truth wins out over the long run. I doubt that, and if that was even the case, until then lies can do a lot of damage. >How do you stay above it all? It's not censored now but you seem able to detect it and protect yourself. I don't. Sometimes I get fed bullshit and believe it. I'm certain there is things I believe right now that are lies. Sometimes I find out a more proper explanation, sometimes I ne…

> I doubt that, and if that was even the case, until then lies can do a lot of damage. Strangely, it's only the proponents of censorship that claim it will lead to utopia. > Censorship is enacted by government, not private individuals. This is not true at all. Free speech is not a synonym for the US 1st amendment. That part of the constitution only protects government interference, which implies that there can be oth…

>…you appear to have discarded presumption of innocence along the way. Terrifying.

No, a court still has to prove that but it's a lot easier in most cases where harm is intended.

>Can I blashpheme or is that too disrespectful? Is satire allowed or is that too disrespecful? Would I be committing violent acts by dismissing God? I'd expect that kind of talk from religious fundamentalists.

The disrespect is meant in terms of a reasonable discussion. Blasphemy usually lies in the realm of religion, which is in the realm of opinion, unless you don't believe in freedom in religion. Satire is rarely calling for violence last I checked and most reputable satirists I know check their facts before the show to make sure they don't get things wrong. Plenty of people like to dress up violent speech as satire but it rarely works well when they're not punching up.

>If you didn't then you just have. I suspect you, either knowingly or unknowingly wish to tie disrespect to violence because it's convenient for arguing against disrespectful speech being free. Well, SCOTUS has ruled that even some forms of "violent speech" are covered by the 1st amendment (speech containing threats must be credible and imminent to lose coverage), disrespect is definitely covered.

As you so beautifully stated above, free speech isn't a synonym for the US paper scrolls. In germany, violent speech is far outside the realm of protected speech. If you threaten to punch someone in germany, the courts can put you in jail for up to 30 days, depending on situation, history and such, usually it's a fine or 1-2 weeks probation/public work. The exceptable clause is that the speech must clearly be unactionable, ie you jokingly tell your friend you're gonna punch them if they win against you in Mario Kart or something like that.

>This is partly true, but it is no doubt true that the law - explicit as it is - states the opposite. Again, who was claiming that the system was perfect?

If it's not actionable then it doesn't matter what the law says since it's not enforcced.

>This sounds to me like conspiracy theory talk, as does the bit about rich people. I'm sure both happen but to paint everything or everyone that way lacks nuance at best and sounds like something you'd hear from a quack in a tinfoil hat at worst.

There have been multiple instances of this happening over the years, most famously KeemStar, if I recall the name correctly, had a private stream for dedicated followers where he would repeatedly wish for someone to be SWATted, which can be a death sentence in the US.

>This is not true at all. Free speech is not a synonym for the US 1st amendment. That part of the constitution only protects government interference, which implies that there can be other types, and there's more than one country in the world. Are you really going to claim that social media companies cannot censor?

The german constitution may not know free speech, but it knows freedom of opinion, which is a tighter subset. Censorship in germany is still defined as being done by the government.

In colloquial language you may refer to some actions that SMC do as censorship but it is hardly correct. What SMC are doing is enabling or surpressing people's ability to share their speech.

>Strangely, it's only the proponents of censorship that claim it will lead to utopia.

Germany has clauses that make you criminally accountable for lies you tell. It's called "Volksverhetzung" and generally means any type of speech that is capable or suitable to arouse hatred against people, a group of people or otherwise defined membership in some thing. It has well defined (by our constitutional court) limits and it has worked well in the past to root out fascist groups and bring them to justice before they do anything to actually harm people.

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#887
post #875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a bait. Is just that I cannot connect Intellectual Property issues with social media issues. > Social media is currently poisoning our country What IP has to do with a kid joining extreme right (or left) groups, higher rates of teenager suicides and people believing anything you put in front of them? All these happen because of social media, at least in part, and I do believe there is another kind of proble…

> I do believe there is another kind of problem at the root It's a bit boring when you say you disagree but put forth no alternative argument.

I wanted to say there is an underlying problem. I don't know what it is, but I cannot see why it has to be IP. I didn't said that I disagree.

I did said that I cannot understand the relation between social media problems and intellectual property. This was a chance for you to explain better (I you were willing to). But... nevermind.

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you time limiting it, and why so arbitrarily? Which lies have persisted the longest, and were those lies supported by free speech or by censorship?

Real-world events such as elections, legislative votes, military ops, referenda, protests and gatherings are time-limited. The lie may have already had its desired effect by the time the truth comes out, if it ever does. Lies about, for example, the stab-in-the-back, tobacco and WMDs in Iraq got the liars what they wanted at the cost of millions of lives. The truth may never become as widely known as the lie due to t…

> The lie may have already had its desired effect by the time the truth comes out, if it ever does

Yes, that's unfortunate. There is no way to consistently detect lies, which is also unfortunate for anyone arguing for censorship as then you cannot ascertain which claims should be censored and which should not.

> Lies about, for example, the stab-in-the-back, tobacco and WMDs in Iraq got the liars what they wanted at the cost of millions of lives.

I don't know what "stab-in-the-back" is but tobacco and WMDs are examples of lack of speech. If we'd all had access to secret documents then the lies about WMDs wouldn't have worked quite as well, I reckon.

> Overall this whole "free speech kills lies" idea sounds like religious dogma to me

Which is ironic considering you've stated it again, and again without reason to back it up.

> its proponents never feel the need to cite any actual evidence or address the horrific consequences of the edge cases

There are no edge cases because it's not promising utopia, it's promising freedom, and it does that because the alternatives are worse - I would rather choose free speech for all than your idea of censoring people based on which method? The abilities of the high priests to divine it, perhaps?

Now that would be religious thinking.

Edit: typo

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#889
post #881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to google the UK and France stuff. Seems to be, as bad as they are, well covered single cases (one group of rapists in the UK and a couple of riots in Dijon). So what exactly are you not "allowed" to discuss?

There are a lot more than one case in the UK. The fact you can only find one seems that the cover up has worked. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/839509/Britain-towns-citie...

Get a grip on reality, jumping from an non-Brit doing a 5 sec Google search and maybe 10 sec headline reading to the conclussion that some mind cover-up exists and works is really sad...

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#890
post #850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the GP, attacking the WHO for changing their minds regarding human to human transmission as he found a statement dating before the one you shared. Doing that would also allow you to attack the WHO for not talking about COVID-19 before it struck, same logic and just as wrong.

Oh, so you are agreeing with me? Ok then!

Oh, I totally agree with you! Sometimes I just can help my sarcasm...
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