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YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

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Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related: Gresham's law as a mental model - Bad drive out good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

That is related to currency and none of its backing arguments have any applicability to speech. Using it in this matter is highly misleading, and could be cited as a form of misinformation.

https://fs.blog/2009/12/mental-model-greshams-law/

> The outcome described by Aristophanes is common in competing human groups or organizations: When bad behavior has taken root, and that bad behavior has a “survival advantage” against good behavior, it becomes difficult, and occasionally impossible, to drive out the bad behavior; a process akin to natural selection.

This is the mental model reference I was thinking about when posting.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My actual answer is in the last line, but I'll ramble a bit first. You make an interesting point, but I think there are times in which we can prohibit certain types of posts and comments that might technically be censorship (using the definition of suppression or prohibition of things that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security), but they aren't bad censorship. I would place some so…

Great set of questions and points. > I struggle a bit with whether YouTube should be legally required to follow the First Amendment (they are a US corporation, not a government), but I can say that I think that their deletion of David Icke's account leaves a bad taste in my mouth- not because I like him, but because I worry that YouTube may one day bow to majority pressure and censor a topic in which I belong to the…

The issue (at least to me) isn't that they can point to a policy that Icke violated, it's that they are arbitrarily ignoring other videos that violate the same policy.

An easy example is that if YouTube chooses delete David Icke's account instead of just demonetizing him, why are they only demonetizing anti-vax accounts but not deleting them? Surely the anti-vax movement has harmed more people than David Icke. Any cynic would notice that David Icke's supporters are crazy but far-right politically, while the anti-vax supporters are crazy but far-left politically. This is a bad look and lets the far-right crazies play the victim card.

A consistently applied and principled set of policies would either let both sets of crazies have their voice, or neither of them. Letting them both have their voice would let YouTube claim to be more of a "pipe" and not have to spend as much effort moderating their content. Censoring both sides obviously takes more effort but is at least defensible. What they have right now is that they spend effort moderating content, but still take flak for it because it looks like they are picking and choosing based on the political winds (which is great when it's your side winning, but the winds can change direction at a moment's notice).

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't spreading dangerously false information about a viral pandemic similar to shouting "fire" in a theatre? I'm not sure it's always so easy to distinguish that actively dangerous conduct from fake news. Not that this difficulty means we shouldn't try.

OK, so I admit that Icke's thing about 5G and COVID-19 is batshit insane. I truly can't imagine how someone could argue that in good faith. He must be trolling, doing it for the lulz. But still, that's arguably distinguishable from creating a panic by shouting "fire" in a crowded theater that's undoubtedly not burning. In that crowded theater, it's the stampede that gets people killed in the moment. I do see the anal…

Icke is one of, if not the, originator of the theories of shapeshifting reptilians controlling society. His own descriptions of himself coincide strongly with paranoid schizophrenia.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#884
post #207

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I would prefer content not to be prohibited at all. Content is not a problem. Actions are a problem. Watch all the videos you like telling you to burn down a cell tower. Once you do burn down a cell tower, then you go to jail. Perhaps we should also then hold the people telling people to burn down cell towers responsible, criminally and civilly, for the people who listen to them. David Icke might not be so cavalier a…

If you’re worried about freedom of speech, then giving more people standing to sue David Icke for taking his dumb advice would be far more stifling than allowing YT to ban people. This would basically allow anyone with deep enough pockets to police speech using the courts.

If you're going to give people advice, you should be prepared to take at least partial responsibility for what happens when they take that advice.

If a lawyer, doctor, accountant, engineer, or any professional gives you bad or malicious advice, they expose themselves to liability for the results of it. If you want to present yourself as an expert on some topic and expect people to listen to you, put some skin in the game and stand behind what you say. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be advising people on anything.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#885

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> They said bans on air from specific places (especially those that disrupt supply chains) are bad. No, they advised "against the application of travel or trade restrictions to countries experiencing COVID-19 outbreaks." Which is identical with not restricting global air travel. https://www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/updated-who-re... > When this claim was made (in early january), there was not clear evidence…

> All epidemiologists seemed to have agreed at that time No, the 4% was based on academic papers and epidimeoligists. Granted there was and is disagreement, but the whole "it's less than 1%" thing was from nonreperts. > but this is widely regarded as a cover-up By who? Some people believe China wasn't forthcoming with evidence, sure. That's possibly true. > Which is identical with not restricting global air travel. W…

> No, the 4% was based on academic papers and epidimeoligists

The figure was actually 3.4% and it was just the dumb fatality-divided-by-cases estimate. IMO they failed to convey the uncertainty in this estimate.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-who-di...

> Well no, general travel restrictions and reductions, and travel bans instituted by areas under outbreak are both within the WHO policy.

The point is that it is obvious that a pandemic is prevented by restricting all travel. The economic damages of a late lockdown are extraordinarily higher than a few weeks of travel restrictions. It was extremely predictable what was going to happen and the WHO somehow did not act swiftly. This YouTuber's videos were much more informative than most info from the WHO and made much more accurate predictions which is extremely weird to me.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Campbellteaching/videos

> Yes, and if you read into the underlying papers, not just the headlines the reasons they recommend this are to prevent shortages and because it's easy to mishandle masks.

I've cited the raw source, not a "headline". The point is it was an outright lie which decreased trust in the institution as someone at the NYT also noted. Arguably, a much better lie would have been that DIY masks are just as effective as professional masks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-...

> By who? Some people believe China wasn't forthcoming with evidence, sure. That's possibly true.

Yeah, it's highly likely the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/feb/07/c...

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All epidemiologists seemed to have agreed at that time No, the 4% was based on academic papers and epidimeoligists. Granted there was and is disagreement, but the whole "it's less than 1%" thing was from nonreperts. > but this is widely regarded as a cover-up By who? Some people believe China wasn't forthcoming with evidence, sure. That's possibly true. > Which is identical with not restricting global air travel. W…

> No, the 4% was based on academic papers and epidimeoligists The figure was actually 3.4% and it was just the dumb fatality-divided-by-cases estimate. IMO they failed to convey the uncertainty in this estimate. https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-who-di... > Well no, general travel restrictions and reductions, and travel bans instituted by areas under outbreak are both within the WHO policy. The po…

> The figure was actually 3.4% and it was just the dumb fatality-divided-by-cases estimate. IMO they failed to convey the uncertainty in this estimate.

I don't believe you're referring to the same statement as the prior person. In the case that you are, that statement is very precise, very correct, and ultimately uninteresting if you're wondering how dangerous COVID is. It's observational (and has minimal uncertainty) as opposed to trying to understand the actual case fatality rate.

> The point is that it is obvious that a pandemic is prevented by restricting all travel.

Yes, if you do so before the thing spreads. If you can't, then no, localized bans aren't really useful. By the time, for example, Trump, was considering a ban on all travel from China, it wouldn't have helped. I'm not sure what the point of linking to a random youtube channel is.

> The point is it was an outright lie which decreased trust in the institution as someone at the NYT also noted. Arguably, a much better lie would have been that DIY masks are just as effective as professional masks.

It's not though. Cite me a paper that shows that cloth masks prevent the spread of corona. The best you'll find is a paper that Zeynep Tufecki (whose tweet you cited), a literature professor at UNC Chapel Hill, coauthored, that concludes that Cloth masks and handwashing limit the spread of COVID-19.

So here's the chain of reasoning:

1. that there is no reliable data that shows that cloth masks are helpful

2. there is data that shows that misuse of cloth masks can be harmful

3. Therefore, we should be cautious and perhaps not recommend cloth masks

Which of those three statements do you feel the WHO got wrong? Please give cited evidence for your disagreement.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that you can convert people who hold racist, misogynistic, anti-Semitic or other repulsive thought by just presenting them better facts is of course naive. What? We have countless examples of it. What world are you living in? It's free speech, facts, ideas that change individuals and society. > We have the entirety of human history that shows that the liberal idea of a market place of ideas is ridiculous.…

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but the best protection is not free speech and studies have shown cognitive bias enables people to effectively ignore what disrupts their beliefs. http://ubplj.org/index.php/jpm/article/view/974 In fact we've known this for some time https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fh0082790 And very likely you yourself are also affected, in this case by your very belief in free speech.…

> I'm sorry to burst your bubble

Thank god for free speech which allows people to burst bubbles.

> but the best protection is not free speech and studies have shown cognitive bias enables people to effectively ignore what disrupts their beliefs.

I know, that's why free speech is important. If people are shown to be cognitively biased, then censorship is the worst thing for society since it keeps people in their bias. Yes, people can ignore whatever they want. It's life. How is censorship an answer here?

> And very likely you yourself are also affected, in this case by your very belief in free speech.

My belief in free speech comes from getting an education and actually thinking about it.

> You hold it so intimately that it has become a core of your own self.

Oh god. This is so obvious and pathetic projecting.

Using your logic, you should be against censorship as it fosters cognitive biases and enables people to live in their bubbles. Without free speech, abolition movement, civil rights movement, lgbt movement, etc can't happen. Without free speech, countries and cultures can't discuss ideas and progress.

Once again, ask yourself why nazi germany, soviet union, north korea, etc love censorship? And ask yourself why you love censorship. It's for the same exact reason. Control and wanting to protect your bubble.

The difference between you and me is that I don't mind my bubble being challenged or bursted. My bubble didn't become a "core of myself". But you, obviously have an agenda and beliefs that you don't want challenged and you want to hold onto your pathetic bubble as long as you can.

You want people think exactly like you, believe things that you believe in and don't want anything challenging it. Just like nazi germany, islamic extremists, communist china, etc.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#889

I very strongly feel that we should be very careful to avoid adopting a legalistic attitude towards freedom of speech. That is, I am opposed to the argument that private corporations are not bound by the first amendment, and therefore it's okay for them to suppress content. I agree that they're not bound by the first amendment (I don't claim to understand the nuances of the "platform" laws so I won't address that), b…

> I don't believe in fighting "bad ideas" by suppressing them

What is a "bad idea" is also hard to know sometimes. If I was there in the time of Galileo I would probably be fighting his "the earth goes round the sun" argument as well.

Many times great ideas first appear seemingly as "bad ideas". Which then are the good "bad ideas" and the bad "bad ideas"? It is unclear if corporates can answer that better than the world as a whole.

Maybe they should just explicitly mark the content with "this may be a bad idea" and leave it online - trusting the users?

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#890

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deplatforming has proven highly effective at preventing bad actors from continuing to spread misinformation on Reddit and other social media sites [1]. I support free speech in principle, but internet platforms are such a powerful megaphone for spreading misinformation, the likes of which history has never seen, that platform owners may feel ethically obligated to act against those who would misuse their systems to c…

Not defending him, nor do I believe him, but I watched a brief portion of the London Real livestream interview last night and he said that 5G provokes symptoms similar to that of COVID-19, not that 5G spreads Coronavirus.

This is also incorrect.

Also he believes that British Royal Family are shape shifting reptiles; he might not have the best judgement on what is backed by evidence.

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