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Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

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Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what basis are you refusing to pay? Services were rendered...

Refusing? ... you misunderstand. I'm from a country where we have a national insurance scheme. And I'm incredibly glad about that.

Ah, gotcha. So you're still paying (just via taxes, not at time of service). But, I'd much prefer something closer to a European system vs what we have in the States.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#872

The American Medical Association owns copyright to all the codes and their descriptions. They have an extremely restrictive and expensive licensing options and they strictly forbid training models with the codes. This month, the practice was called out ( https://www.help.senate.gov/rep/newsroom/press/chair-cassidy... ) so the Overton window may be opening. The AMA (a nonprofit!) clears ~$300M/year revenue from the co…

Reading between the lines, it seems like this is a threat made to bring AMA in line with the administration's policies around medically supporting transgender people. I would expect that if (when) the AMA folds on the matter, concerns around the codes will be somehow forgotten

Probably, but it wouldn't be the first time an axe grinding broke a sponsored monopoly.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#873

The American Medical Association owns copyright to all the codes and their descriptions. They have an extremely restrictive and expensive licensing options and they strictly forbid training models with the codes. This month, the practice was called out ( https://www.help.senate.gov/rep/newsroom/press/chair-cassidy... ) so the Overton window may be opening. The AMA (a nonprofit!) clears ~$300M/year revenue from the co…

So what you're saying is the AMA is openly hostile to Americans.

take a look at the Fortune 100 list and notice how many healthcare companies are in the top 20

the AMA is their homie and is sponsored by them

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious, where do you live that denies a child a life saving surgery just because insurance won't cover it? Because in the US there's laws against that. Maybe I'm just too skeptical, but a) This is a very new account with exactly 1 other posting 3 months ago, and b) They don't refer to their child with any sort of gender. They even used slightly awkward sentence construction just to avoid gender. Few parents th…

Or they value privacy? Especially regarding their children? Many people nondescriptly don’t gender themselves in online discussions.

> Or they value privacy? Especially regarding their children?

Could be, but they made only a single other posting and are effectively not even pseudo-anonymous, but completely anonymous.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#875
post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Routine stuff is never denied in the US either. I've never had one thing denied ever and I even have a weird condition that requires expensive testing to diagnose and even more expensive treatment (narcolepsy). The insurance companies will throw up annoying bureaucracy like prior authorizations, and made me switch medication to generic when it came out (reasonable) and then back from the generic to another brand name…

Odd that your experience would be so different from mine. I routinely experience denials. To give an example, about 60 to 80% of the time, when I visit the dentist for a regular cleaning the charge is denied and I have to submit additional paperwork to convince them to pay it. I can't think of any more simple and basic procedure than that. I have no idea why your experience with healthcare in the US is so much better…

Dental is an entirely different system: dental insurance isn't actually insurance.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#876
post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think countries with even the most coveted universal healthcare just approve everything blindly? Should everyone (anyone?) receive monoclonal antibodies, gene therapies, biologic medications? What criteria should be used to make these determinations?

> Do you think countries with even the most coveted universal healthcare just approve everything blindly? Yes. Everything that they are trained and able to do here, is covered by the national insurance, at least where I live. We never even have to explicitly ask them to approve anything, it's all automatic. You don't see the bill. You might have to pay the difference for "nonessential upgrades", like a plastic cast i…

Which country do you live in that pays for gene therapies or other biologics?

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#877
post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think countries with even the most coveted universal healthcare just approve everything blindly? Should everyone (anyone?) receive monoclonal antibodies, gene therapies, biologic medications? What criteria should be used to make these determinations?

> Should everyone (anyone?) receive monoclonal antibodies, gene therapies, biologic medications? What criteria should be used to make these determinations? Yes, if that's an indicated and effective treatment. Do you think people should just be left to die if they can't pony up the dough in the hospital? Oh, your card's declined, no oncology ward for you?

Where is the limit to how much money is expended on one person?

What if they have a 99% likelihood of death, are unlimited funds expended in this case?

What if there's a shortage on drugs - who should get the limited supply available?

Which country with public health options pays for biologic medications or similar patient-tailored solutions?

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#878
Is there a service that you can buy where they will do this sort of thing for you automatically for every medical bill? E.g. "Here's an obfuscated, probably incorrect bill." "Ah, okay, go ahead and send that to my billing scam insurance and they'll let you know what we'll actually pay you."

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#879
From the artichokel: "If bills are a fiction in order to back up the fiction of charity so the hospital can write off accounts and look like they are somehow doing right by people, this is an effed system."

So close, yet so, so far! If a corporation commits fraud against you, and you literally ask if the corporation has committed fraud against you, and you proceed to voluntarily send that corporation THIRTY-THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS anyway, are you not a willing co-conspirator in the fraud?

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#880
post #12
post #8

It seems like the AIs role was in applying lengthy and complex medicare billing rules - it did not do negotiating and it doesn't seem like the accuracy of its understanding of medicare practices was actually checked. The author reasonably accused the hospital of gouging and the hospital came back with a much lower offer. I'd be interested to hear from a charge coding expert about Claude's analysis here and if it was…

The thing is the prices are all made up anyway. The hospital hallucinates prices, so they don’t blink an eye when an llm does the same.

But that’s expected. Even in a restaurant it’s not like each dish is priced as cost to make plus a markup. It varies widely, what matters is that the prices make sense in the market and over a week/month the overall numbers work out.

A hospital is vastly more complex. They have huge costs (for things they must have) that can’t be recovered 1:1 with services.

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