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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who actually learned the math work in STEM careers, not fancied up sales careers.

Yes and if STEM industry is Silicon Valley then that is just advertising ultimately or if not ads, something much more immoral, data collection for social control. Which is advertising's intention as well so I guess all the same work

Not really, that's computer engineering and programming to support the advertising businesses.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I need a job. I now give easy tests. That seems more of an indictment of your profession than anything to do with the students.

Since the state no longer properly funds higher education there has been a shift in attitude. We are now a business and the client is the student. This has negative long term consequences. One of them is that I pretend to give real tests and real grades. The client must pass. The cost of acquiring new clients is much greater than the cost of keeping existing clients. It's easy to give a passing grade. Students largel…

If that's how you feel, why don't you find a different career? Teaching doesn't even pay enough to do the job if you don't care about doing it well also.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#873
post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything big endian. unsigned int x = 0x01020304; unsigned char *c = (unsigned char*)&x; Assume x is stored at 0x100. On a little endian architecture (x86, most modern ARM systems, etc), it will be stored in memory as [04][03][02][01], from bytes 0x100 to 0x103. If you assign char c to the address of x (0x100), it will read one byte, which is 0x4. However, on a big endian system, that same value would be stored in me…

Do you know if compilers are smart enough to return 04 even on big-endian architectures nowadays? For some reason I'm under the impression that (at least clang and gcc) are able to change this from "first byte in x" to "least significant byte in x" but don't actually know why I think that. Maybe embedded compilers typically don't?

If you wanted to return 04 on big-endian architectures, you can use a binary mask - (int &0xFF).

Since this compiles to FF 00 00 00 in big-endian and 00 00 00 FF in little-endian, it would work on both platforms.

If you’re reading a file in binary format from disk, though, you always have to know whether the byte you are reading is little-endian or big-endian on disk.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#874
post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best test for a Junior is to ask them to submit some of their OSS or personal fun projects they've worked on. From my perspective, especially with Juniors who aren't expected to be extremely knowledgeable, displaying a sense of curiosity and a willingness to learn is much more important. If, hypothetically, there's two candidates, one who is more knowledgeable but has no personal projects versus someone w…

Most engineers, including good ones, that I've interviewed have no interesting GitHub contributions. GitHub is also game-able. Bootcamps, in particular, push their graduates to build an interesting GitHub portfolio. I've found that talking through projects is a weak indicator of competence. It's much easier to memorize talking points than to produce working code.

it doesn't to be on github or "interesting" though, if it's something that a person worked on in their free time - it's good enough to consider...

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#875
post #611

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

YUP

Perhaps another way to widen the scope of what is not cheatable (at the cost of more teacher work, ugh), is to require showing all work?

And I mean every draft, edit, etc.. All paper scratch-notes. Or on work on computer applications, a replayable video/screenshot series of all typing and edits, like a time-lapse of a construction site. Might even add opportunities to redirect work and thinking habits.

Of course, that too will eventually (probably way too soon) be AI-fakeable, so back to paper writing, typewriters, red pencils, and whiteout.

Just an idea; useful?

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question from someone who is regularly tasked with hiring Juniors. What IS a good assessment for entry-level/right out of college positions? -> GPA can be gamed, as laid out. -> Take Home assessments can mostly be gamed, I want to assess how you think, now which tools you use. -> Personality tests favor the outgoing/extroverts -> On-location tests/leet code are a crapshoot. What should be best practice here?…

One classic approach is to over-hire and weed out. I find some form of this de-facto happens anyway, so managing more explicitly has some benefits.

It also would be great if a person doing the interview could take the rest of the day off rather than jumping on a quick call with no time/interest to really try and understand the person on the other side of the desk. At the moment in most (all?) big companies an interview is something that noone wants to commit to and and when they have to - you understand the effort, dedication and focus that goes into it - that's right, none.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(older) ARM (aka, big-endian) it will be 01

I just ran it on my M2 mac and got 04. Don't compilers typically take endianness into account for things like this anyway?

No, compilers don’t take endianness into account. (especially not C)

You need to use a bit mask in order to make this code endian-independent rather than a pointer alias. Like (uint8_t)(int & 0xFF), or something like that.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#878
post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

Serious question from someone who is regularly tasked with hiring Juniors. What IS a good assessment for entry-level/right out of college positions? -> GPA can be gamed, as laid out. -> Take Home assessments can mostly be gamed, I want to assess how you think, now which tools you use. -> Personality tests favor the outgoing/extroverts -> On-location tests/leet code are a crapshoot. What should be best practice here?…

What counts as gaming? In my physics degree, for coding courses, we were allowed to use library algorithms directly provided we cited them. We were mostly tested on how (not) buggy and usable our program was. If you don't care what tools were used or how the solution came up, then that shouldn't be a problem.

If someone writes "perfect" code from a take-home, you can ask them to explain what they did (and if they used GPT, explain how they checked it). Then ask them to extend or discuss what the issues are and how they'd fix it.

I think asking some probing questions about past projects is normally enough to discern bullshit. You do need to be good at interviewing though. If you really want an excellent candidate then there's the FANG approach of (perhaps unfairly) filtering people who don't perform well in timed interviews, provided your rubric is good and you have enough candidates to compare to. There is a trade off there.

Grad positions optimise for what you can test - people are unlikely to have lots of side projects or work experience so you end up seeing how well they learned Algorithms 101. For someone who's worked for 10 years asking about system design in the context of their work is more useful.

Note that PhD and academic positions very rarely ask for this sort of stuff. Even if you don't have publications. They might run through a sample problem or theory (if it's even relevant), but I've never had to code to get a postdoc.

Otherwise you put people on short probation periods and be prepared to let them go.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#879
post #18

My daughter was accused of turning in an essay written by AI because the school software at her online school said so. Her mom watched her write the essay. I thought it was common knowledge that it was impossible to tell whether text was generated by AI. Evidently, the software vendors are either ignorant or are lying, and school administrators are believing them.

> Her mom watched her write the essay.

I suspect there is a product opportunity here. It could be as simple as a chrome extension that records your sessions in google docs and generates a timelapse of your writing process. That’s the kind of thing that’s hard to fake and could convince an accuser that you really did write the essay. At the very least it could be useful insurance in case you’re accused.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#880
post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. I agree with the first part, but I think the second follows from it. Take a class like organic chemistry. When I was in school, the grade was based on 5 exams, each worth 20% of your grade. Worse still, anything less than an A was seen as a failure for most students dreaming of medical/vet school. Of course you are going to have people…

The consequences of cheating could be made much more severe. I am troubled by this argument because it suggests people have no ethical core. If that is true then we are going to have problems with them regardless.

When we talk about an ethical core, that sort of behavior exists between individuals. People in a family, or people who are friends, hopefully will and typically do adjust their behavior according to some sense of ethics. When we put people into a classroom, however, we’re implicitly putting them into competition with their peers for a limited set of opportunities that determine the extent to which their basic human needs, and those of their family, will be met in the future. Let me ask you, what is it about one’s ability to perform well in some arbitrary social role that makes them more entitled to their needs being met than another who lacks that particular ability? If you wanted to argue that a cheater is behaving unethically, you’d need to show that they do, in a moral and ethical sense, deserve less than their peers.
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