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Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

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Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#871

Post by foxyv »

numpad0 wrote: post #574
Gatsky wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost everyone else in a first world country, and probably many other Americans. But these people, who are not in fact nuts or cretinous, actually believe this and consider it of paramount importance. In one sense, the point can't be argued. My view: If the US population…

> I have learned that some Americans consider it crucial to arm themselves in case there is a tyrannical government in the future. This seems nuts to almost everyone else in a first world country Yet they continue to absolutely dominate the world, culturally and economically. Can't rule out the possibility entirely that we are nuts and they are not.

Please note that a lot of that dominance comes from a privileged position of being the only developed country in the world that wasn't devastated by endless strategic bombing during World War II. This led to the dollar becoming the reserve currency for the world, turbocharging its industry, and securing advantageous trade deals. In addition it is surrounded by allies, allowing it to safely engage in wars abroad to project economic power.

The US is struggling to keep this lead and will probably have difficulty maintaining it for another 10-20 years. That is, unless Asia and Europe decide to have another stupid war for some awfully stupid reason. Even then, it is unlikely the US would remain unscathed in such a case.

The culture of the US is often touted as its primary reason for success, but there is a great deal of doubt about this.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#872

Post by [deleted] »

nisegami wrote: post #674
jimbob45 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing the perp’s name with “John Doe” or “Jane Doe” in major publications seems like a strong first step.

If the shooter is white, the left wing will accuse the media of trying to cover up for a hate crime. If the shooter is not white, the right wing will accuse the media of trying to cover up a violent criminal.

[deleted]

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#873

Post by simon1ltd »

astockwell wrote: post #451
simon1ltd wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want gun violence, but I 100% want the 1986 National Firearm Act repealed. I believe fully automatic assault weapons and machine guns should be available for purchase, new, just like any other weapon. (Fully automatic weapons are legal to buy and own right now in the US, if you pay a $200 stamp tax and wait 9 months for the ATF to process the paperwork, but you can only buy "NFA" regulated machine guns that w…

Most people I know would like to see their children grow up.

I would also like to see my children grown up. I’m aware that insane/evil people will do awful things, but that you don’t suppress the rights of everyone to stop one or two bad apples.

In my local community groups I see people demanding metal detectors be installed in our schools.

This is in response to: An attempted murderer being chased by police, going into a school he doesn’t belong in, barricading himself inside and murdering children.

It’s feel good security theater. If you’re in the middle of a killing spree you’re not going to stop because of a metal detector. If you’re dealing with kids bringing weapons to school, that’s different — but the responses to this event from people local to me are about 90% make-believe security.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#874

Post by nradov »

Spooky23 wrote: post #681
bko wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> empirical evidence instead of lofty ideals The problem with a lot of anti-gun measures is that the proponents readily admit that they would not have stopped any particular shooter. For instance, people talk about background checks, but this shooter and many others did not have a history and were not known to police. They would have passes a background check. Often times the person acquiring the gun already broke a…

The school shooting club thing is an example of how regulation works. Just as you don’t see soldiers on military bases walking around with guns on their hips for fun, there were strict rules around high school shooting ranges - kids didn’t take guns home and had strict protocols around handling, etc. The big difference now is you have a fetishization of guns combined with a low intensity insurgency. If you ask a more…

A few decades ago it was actually somewhat common for students at rural high schools to bring guns from home so that they could go hunting after school. That didn't seem to cause any problems.

Most recent mass shooters have acted for personal reasons. They were not insurgents fighting the government.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#875

Post by simon1ltd »

cowmoo728 wrote: post #476
simon1ltd wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want gun violence, but I 100% want the 1986 National Firearm Act repealed. I believe fully automatic assault weapons and machine guns should be available for purchase, new, just like any other weapon. (Fully automatic weapons are legal to buy and own right now in the US, if you pay a $200 stamp tax and wait 9 months for the ATF to process the paperwork, but you can only buy "NFA" regulated machine guns that w…

I would like to be able to purchase a Boeing AH-64 Apache, along with its M230 machine gun and AGM-114 Hellfire missiles.

I know you’re being facetious, but It’s fun to point out that you can purchase an Apache if you can find a government to tell you one.

The missiles are separately regulated, and likely not legal for private ownership. Missiles and high explosives are licensed and legislated for separately.

Any weapon that’s part of a standard infantry soldiers load out should be available, new from the manufacturer. I don’t have a problem with the background checks that are required for a class 3 weapon, like an m16 or a Thompson sub machine gun (https://dealernfa.com/product-category/machine-guns/all-tran...), but as it stands only wealthy people can still afford to purchase them.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#876

Post by seabird »

doctoroctogon wrote: post #625

Question for the pro-gun folks: where is the limit on what a civilian needs to defend themselves? Assuming you agree civilians shouldn’t have nukes. How about fighter jets. What about tanks. What about bazookas. How do you make that call. If, for example, greater than 5 round magazines isn’t the limit, where is the limit and why?

Tanks, warplanes, artillery, rockets, etc. are for the most part legal for civilians to have and it doesn't really bother me. The cost of most of these systems is prohibitively expensive and if you can afford them, you can have them regardless of legality.

If you're scared of criminals having these, I have something unfortunate to tell you; the law is not stopping these people. It's the exact same thing with small arms controls in the US. The controls people suggest are going to stop fuck all. Every time somebody brings up universal background checks or assault weapons bans in a discussion, they end having to admit that those things wouldn't have stopped the shooting that triggered that discussion. They MIGHT allow you to prosecute somebody after the fact, for whatever that's worth.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#877

Post by ellopoppit »

JofArnold wrote: post #800
christophilus wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is an independent country (as opposed to a British colony) purely due to the fact that we had lots of individuals with guns who could be organized into a rebel army. (And the help of foreign arms.) I think that is why guns are so precious in the US psyche. It’s also why guns are enshrined in the constitution. There’s disagreement on why the constitution left the arming of militias up to “the people”, but I’m o…

That I guess is a big thing I can't fully understand at a deep level, not growing up in USA. Seems like hanging on to something that made sense 240 years ago. Times change. I mean, slavery was legal then... Hopefully people don't want to hang onto that too even though it was "useful" at the time? Furthermore, how in the modern world can people stand up to a government on a military level? An untrained population of g…

>Furthermore, how in the modern world can people stand up to a government on a military level? An untrained population of gun owners with limited ammo doesn't stand a chance against the biggest and most heavily armed army in the history of the world, right?

Worked well enough for the people in Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, etc., didn't it?

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#878

Post by pnutjam »

Koshkin wrote: post #700
amelius wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If at all, perhaps allow geo-fenced guns, which don't work in and around schools?

Knives, too? Because I need my gun to work when someone charges at me with a knife in their hand.

Do you have a broom? Congrats, you have just established a reach advantage.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#879

Post by simon1ltd »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #657
simon1ltd wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want gun violence, but I 100% want the 1986 National Firearm Act repealed. I believe fully automatic assault weapons and machine guns should be available for purchase, new, just like any other weapon. (Fully automatic weapons are legal to buy and own right now in the US, if you pay a $200 stamp tax and wait 9 months for the ATF to process the paperwork, but you can only buy "NFA" regulated machine guns that w…

So what you want is the ability to kill large numbers of people quickly and efficiently, correct?

That’s what high explosives are made for.

To use a real world example: Columbine was a failed school bombing because their detonators didn’t work because the product they used for the detonator’s changed between their testing and when they purchased the final “real” devices.

The guns were intended to keep everyone terrified and in place until the bombs could kill everyone.

A fluke manufacturing change to the product (I think a clock) between their detonator tests and their actual attack is the only thing that stopped nearly everyone in the school from being killed that day. They even set a bomb outside of the school to kill the first responders when they arrived — again, it was a horrible tragedy, but what happened was so much less than what was intended.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#880

Post by cypress66 »

dublidu wrote: post #610
cypress66 wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As tragic as these events may be, the probability of your kids dying to a school shooting is still incredibly low, and a few orders of magnitude less than car accidents. Doing some quick math, it seems like it's around 100 to 1000 times more likely that some kid dies to some accident than a mass shooting. But people don't seem to worry 1000 times more about these accidents than school shootings. And it would actually…

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/22/1094364930/firearms-leading-c... Actually kids are more likely to die from guns than car accidents in America

I was referring exclusively to school mass shootings.
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