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Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

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Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#861

Post by frowaway001 »

pjmlp wrote: post #856
frowaway001 wrote: post #851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how has Scala "a similar problem"? Plus, for this question, the size of the user base doesn't matter: If a developer has to adapt his code to a new language version, he/she doesn't care whether ten or ten-thousand other people have to do the same.

It matters for the language designers, how much people they want to make angry for breaking their code. Scala's smaller user base means there are a lot of less people to get mad.

And you still haven't explained how Scala has a similar problem.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#862

Post by enL01Ugxc0q6Dzp »

drdaeman wrote: post #831
sytelus wrote: post #655

Here's Github repo: https://github.com/dotnet . Wow, these things are being released under MIT licence - who would have thought .Net would be more "free-er" than Java? In other news: * Visual Studio 2015 and ASP.NET 5 will support gulp, grunt, bower and npm for front end developers. * OmniSharp is a family of Open Source projects, each with one goal - To enable great .NET development in YOUR editor of choice - http:/…

Given that the primary issue with .NET/CLR ecosystem adoption was not lack of implementations but unclear situation with software patents, I don't think MIT is a wise option. It's certainly up to Microsoft, but anything with an explicit patent grant would be a much better idea.

They have given an explicit patent grant:

https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/blob/master/PATENTS.TXT

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#863

Post by daveloyall »

throwawaykf05 wrote: post #732
daveloyall wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@com2kid Microsoft defined what computers are capable of. Let me clarify: most people heard Microsoft's version of reality first--and they were amazed! We all were. Computers have changed life for all of us. But computers aren't what they could have been... Microsoft's version of computers is a pale and sickly thing, it's engineered for--that is, optimized for--profit rather than productivity. Some people use compute…

> Microsoft's version of computers is a pale and sickly thing, it's engineered for--that is, optimized for--profit rather than productivity. I think you have it backwards. It's the new vision of computers (walled gardens, all the interesting logic hidden away in data centers, content consumption appliances instead of real computers) that is pale and sickly. > How many more lives might have been saved over the past co…

https://nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/

http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/

> I think you have it backwards. It's the new vision of computers (walled gardens, all the interesting logic hidden away in data centers, content consumption appliances instead of real computers) that is pale and sickly.

Yes, these new trends are worrisome. But it's not the first time!

I firmly believe that we'd all be better off if THIS guy had been the one to introduce computers to the common man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOf4EMN6-XA

To this day, Microsoft is putting computers in schools--but not LOGO, not free software, not unix, not lisp, not crates of disposable m68ks and bread boards... Nope, they are putting products in front of new generations eyeballs.

Data can trump anecdotes, and it should when a culture believes they are doing the right thing but things are still going poorly and nobody understands why--at those times, by all means, collect some data and analyze it!

But when "everybody knows" we're doing something wrong, and things are going poorly, then for the love of god use some common sense and stop doing it!

The whole planet got 0wned by MS before many of us here were born--certainly before most of us were competent. So this is what we've got, this is where we are.

Big picture: Where do we go from here? Immediate situation: don't become part of a new generation of MS fanboys. We don't need that.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#864

Post by Shamanmuni »

throwawaykf05 wrote: post #732
daveloyall wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@com2kid Microsoft defined what computers are capable of. Let me clarify: most people heard Microsoft's version of reality first--and they were amazed! We all were. Computers have changed life for all of us. But computers aren't what they could have been... Microsoft's version of computers is a pale and sickly thing, it's engineered for--that is, optimized for--profit rather than productivity. Some people use compute…

> Microsoft's version of computers is a pale and sickly thing, it's engineered for--that is, optimized for--profit rather than productivity. I think you have it backwards. It's the new vision of computers (walled gardens, all the interesting logic hidden away in data centers, content consumption appliances instead of real computers) that is pale and sickly. > How many more lives might have been saved over the past co…

> Please enlighten me on the ideas! concepts! Microsoft held back again and again that were not available on free software systems?

Are you joking? I'll just give you one example: IE 6 and its complete disregard for open standards, end-user security and its lack of change put the web in stasis for years. At first, it didn't make much difference that we had Firefox because developers still made their pages only compatible with Microsoft's non-compliant browser, which was understandable as most people used it. Since IE lost ground the web has become a much more open and welcoming space for experimentation and advancement of its technologies. And that's undeniable.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#865

Post by jacquesm »

jasonlotito wrote: post #843
jacquesm wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not hold it against you that you make a living with MS, that said in the present they do plenty of stuff that they really shouldn't. So it's not just the previous generation, the current one is also anything but clean.

One could say the same about companies and organizations that you admit to supporting as well. So, if all choices are bad choices, what are you left with?

Untainted open source. There's plenty of it.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#866

Post by jacquesm »

maccard wrote: post #802
jacquesm wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a fairly weak and circumstantial list, in my opinion. That's fine by me. I think they should really wise up and start to play nice. If IBM could do it then Microsoft can too. > Also, name a player that isn't equally or more abusive? Why, does that excuse them? > If you mention Apple, Google, or Amazon, I'm going to disagree. I would agree with that myself, so I won't be naming those.

On the IBM front I think you need to reconsider. http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-02/ibm-says-justice... (apologies for mobile link). I've read your comments throughout this thread, and am curious, what will MS have to do to get back in your good books? As far as I'm concerned, they're far less shady than google, oracle, yet your own views seem to be against giving them a chance.

That's a good question. Let me think about that.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#867

Post by jacquesm »

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #473
shmerl wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developers need to start looking more seriously at C#/.Net. I don't think they need to. They might if they have some particular need in it, but there are way more interesting things to learn if you are interested in something new, like Rust of example.

Rust is neat. Great for hobby stuff. But it hasn't even reached 1.0, and I highly doubt you're going to get enterprises to bet their infrastructure on it.

You could have made that remark at some point in time about any open source technology that eventually got lots of enterprises to bet their infrastructure on it so by that standard Rust will do just fine. Of course there is no telling what the future holds for Rust and other novel pieces of open source code but I would not dismiss them out of hand this easily. See: Linux, Apache, PHP, Ruby, MySql, Postgres, GCC and tons of other very successful open source projects that at some date in the past were pre 1.0, fragile and buggy.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#868

Post by basisword »

itsboring wrote: post #836
frozenport wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power of OSS is often overstated when it comes to writing user friendly software and the sorry state of the *nix GUIs, where setting up a multi motor setup like you do in Windows 98 is still a few years away. The reality is that best practices often conflict with the need to ship resulting is wasted time refactoring, and redesigning.

When my dad's laptop broke, he picked up my spare Ubuntu laptop and has been using it for the last two years. I know it's just one anecdote, but when it saves me a crap-ton of money and time, it seems very real to me. He could have asked me to buy Windows and Office for him... too bad for Microsoft he hasn't needed either. Game over.

What kind of things does your Dad do on that laptop? It seems to me that Linux works well for people who are very technical and people who are not. The problem is with people who want to do more than browse the web and read email but aren't technical enough to do it on Linux. For example a user who wants to record themselves playing guitar. On a mac, plug in and open Garageband. On Windows download Audacity and plug in. On Linux figure out JACK/drivers/supported IO devices. I haven't used Linux in a few years so I admit my opinion could be out of date but I've definitely noticed that the problem is for that middle group who want to do more with their computer but aren't technical enough to do it on Linux.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#870

Post by BloatControl »

So here is a 700+ comments thread about MS products without one single occurance of the word that is associated most with anything MS: bloat.

We have a serious problem with generations of so called software engineers growing up with the perception that this kind of code flatulence is ok to be released to the world.

We need more programmers with real knowledge to solve the problems the world has today. These really good guys feel offended by such bloated systems and like minimal, efficient solutions. MS has lost the ability to attract these elite programmers forever and it is today a propagator of an anti-concept of software and software development.

Already too many people are not seeing the obvious. They believe MS produces acceptable operating systems, while anybody with real knowledge can only laugh about these caricatures of computing systems - this is doing so much harm to the whole IT world and therefor to the real world.

Bloat, bloat, bloat. Incredible. We must actively prepare to not let this illness float into the world of elegant, slick and efficient open source products. This is a dangerous bloat attack against the world of free thinking - be prepared to fight the invasion of miriads of dumb zombies! Neanderthalers are still out there, many of them, to fight the evolution of homo sapiens sapiens.

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