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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#861

Post by remarkEon »

Retric wrote: post #765
crote wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite common for babies to come out of the womb with blonde hair, only for it to darken to brown later in life. The baby isn't blonde, it just looks blonde right now. Same with gender. Doctors observe a flavor of genitals, make a reasonable assumption, and legally assign the gender which seems appropriate.

Not just that, start talking hundreds of millions of births and you get clerical error. Which could then become rather complicated if there are laws saying the sex assigned at birth has significant lifelong legal consequences.

Clerical errors get corrected. Because they are errors.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#862

Post by remarkEon »

space_fountain wrote: post #705
remarkEon wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This part: >except that to remove perverse incentives it’s reasonable to require hrt "I took a drug, therefore I am now a woman" is not a reasonable position to hold. The debate starts out with one based on an identity, and then in the very next formulation reduces that identity to which medicines you take.

No, but that’s not what the statement is saying. It’s arguing that we should add the minimum restrictions we can to the women’s sports category and that hormones might be a reasonable one

This started out with a claim that “trans women are women full stop”, which implies that there’s no difference in the categories, and has since retreated to “in order for trans women to compete as women, they have to take these medicines”.

So which is it?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#863

Post by dmitrygr »

happymellon wrote: post #749
dmitrygr wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif

> Khelif was born female and has competed exclusively in women's events, including those overseen by the IOC.[2][4][5] She is not transgender.[6][7][8]

"confirms that she has the SRY gene" - that's the one present only on the Y chromosome

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/sports/article/2026/02/05/boxer-im...

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#864

Post by kelseyfrog »

1718627440 wrote: post #853
kelseyfrog wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her* (sorry)

Fair. Did I fail at reading comprehension or at making implicit assumptions?

No worries. I assumed that everyone who was trying to lecture me about women's sports was a man.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#865

Post by blks »

walthamstow wrote: post #425
blks wrote: post #399

The only reason is topic is even on the table is the sheer amount of political grifters riding the trans “panic” for many years, trying to rile up a mob. This is a non issue, and online trans investigators and people like jk Rowling so far managed to only hurt multiple (assigned at birth) women in sports, whos looks don’t conform with traditional femininity.

Trans panic is doubly popular on the right because it's a wedge issue within the left, it divided modern feminism into two camps

You sure about that? I rarely see any debate on the left about trans rights, but I see various right wing politicians and media constantly beat the drums about trans people - bathrooms, sports, claiming them all to be pedophiles, “transinvestigating” various celebrities or figures. Current US executive branch made a few directed hits against trans people, for example creating a bunch of problems with passports. Trans people are certainly one of the most popular scapegoats for the right.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#866

Post by j_w »

hananova wrote: post #381
j_w wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think it bans women that thought/think that they are cis but actually aren't, which is a bit of a different story. A fairly tragic one. Intersex/trans/anything else people just don't really have a clean fit into a lot of places, which is unfortunate. > this is nothing more than a misogynist attempt to make women’s sport as unimpressive and average as possible. Rules set by mostly old men of course. Well, not r…

Interesting how it’s “unfortunate” if it doesn’t affect men. The blatant hypocrisy is disgusting. There have been women banned from women’s sports who then later literally gave birth, if giving birth doesn’t qualify one as female, then what are we doing as a society? Your linked article is also a massive category error. The people whose opinion should be polled should be actual competing athletes, that’s how the rule…

> Interesting how it’s “unfortunate” if it doesn’t affect men.

It's unfortunate because trans people are just as much people as cis people and deserve complete equality, but the reality of equality is that it can be very hard to do right.

Civil rights are hard because there are a lot of "rights" that can be applied to oppress others. Freedom of speech can absolutely be used to crush others, so how do you enact reasonable limits to prevent that without simultaneously causing the oppression that you aimed to prevent?

There are statutes in the US that put requirements on public school sports in relation to sex (sex is the quantifier used in Title IX). This to some effect limits men's sports in schools because of requirements for equality (typically represented as having an equal number of men's/women's sports). We consider this acceptable because otherwise there is the possibility that woman's sports are underrepresented because men's sports are more popular. In this case it's important to remember that there is limited funding.

The thing is, the class you are "bringing up" here is ~50% of the population. You're slightly limiting the other 50%, but it's barely of consequence. You are simply ensuring that to some extent funding isn't biased.

For trans women athletes, you are taking about a > The people whose opinion should be polled should be actual competing athletes

Really? In this case are you limiting it to just Olympic athletes? Can we include Diamond League athletes? Collegiate? Local 5k runners?

What even defines an athlete? Do I have to enter a race every so many months to maintain "athlete" status? Is a local race fine or do I need to be in Boston? This is silly gatekeeping.

> The biggest anti-trans athlete is some 5th place loser

Does this matter? It's also just "the biggest anti-trans athlete" that you know about. I'm sure there are some other women out there that are more hateful.

There are nuanced arguments to have about the trans women in sports situation, but the right is entirely against having them on completely bigoted basis, and then there is a very small subset of people who poison the well by turning good faith discussions about the topic into just hating the people having the discussions. At no point have I said anything disparaging about trans people or athletes. I'm just bringing up the reality of the situation being complicated, and as you called out: very unfortunate. It's unfortunate for trans men too, but nobody seems to complain about that one. :)

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#867

Post by j_w »

dpd_dpd wrote: post #800
simiones wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caster Semenya is a woman, not sure why you're referring to her as him. The fact that she has a potentially unfair advantage due to her unusual genetics in women's competitions doesn't in any way make it fair to refer to her in this way.

If you look at accounts from Semenya's early life there is evidence against his account of growing up as a girl. For example, there have been school photos published showing him wearing a boy's uniform near to a group of girls who were all wearing girl's uniforms. His former school headmaster, when interviewed years later, said he thought that Semenya was a boy and was very surprised to hear that he was now competing…

Even if you believe that it is the case that she lived her early life as a male, at the point that a person has made it clear that they have some preferred pronoun/is trans would it not just be disrespectful to intentionally refer to them counter to that?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#868

Post by Retric »

remarkEon wrote: post #861
Retric wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, start talking hundreds of millions of births and you get clerical error. Which could then become rather complicated if there are laws saying the sex assigned at birth has significant lifelong legal consequences.

Clerical errors get corrected. Because they are errors.

Only in theory is it so easy to separate clerical errors from other issues.

So in practice clerical errors cause all kinds of long term havoc. Once declared dead it can be a monstrous effort to prove to various systems you are in fact alive.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#869

Post by happymellon »

ethin wrote: post #826
happymellon wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support trans-rights, and want to weigh one groups of rights against another groups. Taking one stat which is uncontroversial. AFAB women are are significantly more likely to sustain ACL injuries than men or trans-women: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4805849/ Multiple reasons, but leg placement on the hip means direction change at pace puts more stress on joints, and the cycle appears to cause problems f…

I mean yes but why keep the analysis private? I can think of very few reasons to do that, and one of them is because they know their methodology or data is flawed or inaccurate and they don't want people figuring that out. Obviously this is speculation but I would think they would want data like that to be public, since we want more data on things like this, not less.

I completely agree.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#870

Post by s1artibartfast »

txrx0000 wrote: post #569
dpd_dpd wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the solution is to exclude male advantage from the female competition via evidence-based analysis, as the IOC's new policy does.

Grouping based on skill would achieve what you describe and then some. It would eliminate every kind of advantage, not just sex-based advantage.

However, the point is not to group by advantage. It is to create a separate category for women to compete in where women can win. Any grouping that failed at this purpose misses the mark
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