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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

561–570 of 960 posts

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#561
post #4

I wonder if anyone has measured the speed in which reality is codified into law or regulation. Women have been fighting against males in female sports for many, many years. Why did it take so long for something so obvious to be acted upon?

The Olympics used to do this. From as early as the 1960's they were doing genetic testing on female athletes. They stripped Polish sprinter Ewa Kłobukowska of all her medals and records in 1967, in spite of the fact that she gave birth to a child a year later, which would seem to indicate that she was a woman. The Olympics only abandoned this testing regime after the 1996 Olympic Games when 8 women who were cis and a…

Fascinating that this is being downvoted.

Anyway, some more links to spread the getting-downvoted love:

"Gender verification of female Olympic athletes" (Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 2002): https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/fulltext/2002/10000/gende...

> The shift to PCR-based techniques replaced one diagnostic genetic test with another but did not alleviate the problems. Positive results still stigmatized women with such conditions as androgen insensitivity, XY mosaicism, and 5-α-reductase deficiency. Both sex chromatin and SRY tests identify individuals with genetic anomalies that yield no competitive advantage. Therefore, finally in 1999, the IOC conditionally rescinded its 30-yr requirement for on-site gender screening of all women entered in female-only events at the Olympic Games, starting with Sydney in 2000. Rather, intervention and evaluation of individual athletes by appropriate medical personnel could be employed if there was any question about gender identity. This change has not been made permanent.

"World Athletics' mandatory genetic test for women athletes is misguided. I should know – I discovered the relevant gene in 1990" (Andrew Sinclair, 2025): https://www.mcri.edu.au/news/insights-and-opinions/world-ath...

> It is worth noting these tests are sensitive. If a male lab technician conducts the test he can inadvertently contaminate it with a single skin cell and produce a false positive SRY result.

> No guidance is given on how to conduct the test to reduce the risk of false results.

> Nor does World Athletics recognise the impacts a positive test result would have on a person, which can be more profound than exclusion from sport alone.

> There was no mention from World Athletics that appropriate genetic counselling should be provided, which is considered necessary prior to genetic testing and challenging to access in many lower- and middle-income countries.

> I, along with many other experts, persuaded the International Olympic Committee to drop the use of SRY for sex testing for the 2000 Sydney Olympics.

> It is therefore very surprising that, 25 years later, there is a misguided effort to bring this test back.

"Medical Examination for Health of All Athletes Replacing the Need for Gender Verification in International Sports" (JAMA, 1992): https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/39507...

> Even if a molecular method could be devised that had a very small error rate, it would still just constitute a test for a nucleic acid sequence, not for sex or gender. Although one can test for the main candidate gene for male sex determination, SRY, it still holds that most XY women test positive and some XX males test negative for SRY. It is possible that there will never be a laboratory test that will adequately assess the sex of all individuals.

...

> (IAAF proposals held) that the purpose of gender verification is to prevent normal men from masquerading as women in women's comopetition was reinforced. Perhaps a genuine concern decades ago, this fear now seems to be a less pressing concern. One reason may be that routine drug testing now requires the voiding of urine be carefully watched by an official to make certain that urine from a given athlete actually comes from his or her urethra. Thus, athletes are already carefully watched in "doping stations". The likelihood of a male successfully masquerading as a female under such circumstances seems remote in current comparison.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes? Regularly. It's the competing women who are complaining, though. They feel it is unfair to compete with men.

The problem is that someone who's transitioned is no longer a man. After undergoing surgery and hormone treatment for a long period of time, a trans athlete falls somewhere between men and women in terms of capability. They'd have no more success competing against men than naturally born women would, yet they still have advantages when competing against naturally born women. Unfortunately, while the most equitable so…

It's your decision to take drugs that destroy your bodies ability to compete. It's the same as people who decide to eat way too much and similarly destroy their bodies ability to compete. They don't need to make new 'fat person's divisions for people who eat too much. If you want to compete in sports at a high level taking female hormones is detrimental to that.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#563
post #507
post #68

The easiest way to explain this nonsense is that in 100+ years of Olympics, there are ZERO elite athletes who were transgender none it's brought to you by the some of the very same people who want you to prove you are a citizen every time you vote because there have been no previous cases of that either However there are women who have given birth who will fail that SRY test Because biology is messy, not black and wh…

There's also cis-male people who will "pass" that SRY test if they take it for some reason... This is a dumb ass way to try and define the woman's category... which is about the expected result of bigots trying to work backwards from the result they want headlines about.

> There's also cis-male people who will "pass" that SRY test if they take it for some reason...

This is news to me - which males are you talking about here?

> This is a dumb ass way to try and define the woman's category...

It's really not, though. They found a marker they can test for, and have clearly defined exceptions.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to develop relative skill rating systems like Elo.

Not sure how this helps. Olympic events already have relative rating systems that ranks all the participant: pretty complicated and sport dependent systems that determine qualification for the games and competition amongst all the competitors at the games. The problem how to have separate competitions for different groups of participants when there isn't a universally shared agreement on who should be in which group.

If you have a relative skill rating system, then there's no need to split competitors into groups. But if you insist, then you can split them based on skill ratings (define a rating range for beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc). And for games with one-on-one matchups, sampling from a gaussian centered on each player's skill rating is good enough.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone worth listening to seriously suggesting that informal childhood sports are somehow equivalent to programs that can define academic or professional careers? Edit I’d add that T screening in sports exists primarily to find dopers, not people trying to pass.

I don't see how your question follows from the rest of the discussion, or in what specific ways you are suggesting people argue to be equivalent. Both K-12 sports and Olympic sports are understood to be sports. To restate myself, sports during childhood are much more important than elite world championships. Almost everyone I know did a sport with peers during our formative years, myself included. Meanwhile, nobody I…

Well then good news, this article and the discussion are only talking about the Olympics, not childhood sports.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is not a good analogy at all. It's so poor an analogy that it's challenging to interpret this comment generously. I think you might be arguing facetiously to make a different rhetoric point than the literal content of your post, bot I will respond to your text literally. Humans have a wide variety of biological variation in metrics we think of as linked to "biological sex" and those metrics are accessibly mu…

> Humans have a wide variety of biological variation in metrics we think of as linked to "biological sex" What is the total prevalence of all conditions medically recognized as intersex? > and those metrics are accessibly mutable. What is that even supposed to mean?

> What is the total prevalence of all conditions medically recognized as intersex?

Not all biological variation is classified as intersex.

> What is that even supposed to mean?

You can change a lot of your 'secondary sex characteristics' intentionally. This is much easier than removing a limb, and even easier than adding a limb.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making scientific claims, but with the only evidence that I'm aware of contradicting the claim. The usual approach with puberty blockers is prescribing them around the onset of natural puberty and one way or another stopping them around the age of 16. While there are sadly some cases of people who started hormone therapies and later regretted it, I'm aware of no cases of long term health impacts that are attri…

> You're making scientific claims, but with the only evidence that I'm aware of contradicting the claim. > I asked Claude... There are no double-blind studies, RCTs, or otherwise on this topic because it's not a situation that lends itself to that type of study. Please don't try to ask AI to summarize the situation because its training set is guaranteed to have far more discussion about it from Reddit and news articl…

I'm not asking for a double blind study. I'm asking for examples of someone who took puberty blockers, regretted it and stopped, and then went on to not be able to live the life they wanted to live. I'm not aware of any such stories and I'm pretty familiarly with the population of people who regret taking hormones. When I double checked with Claude it also failed to find anything accept the issue around bone density I mentioned.

There are plenty of studies that point to strong evidence that this protocol results in better mental health outcomes because for whatever potential consequence there is for delaying natural puberty, there are plenty of known irreversible impacts of allowing it to progress.

If you have other evidence, even just observational studies it would be good to share that.

And again the recommendation is to continue until 15 or 16, not until 18

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#568
post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Has Khelif published it? Otherwise, I don't think anyone's very personal information about their body should be on HN (or anywhere). If it doesn't violate a guideline, it should.

They violated the rules. They didnt have to compete.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to develop relative skill rating systems like Elo.

No, the solution is to exclude male advantage from the female competition via evidence-based analysis, as the IOC's new policy does.

Grouping based on skill would achieve what you describe and then some. It would eliminate every kind of advantage, not just sex-based advantage.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#570
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also cis-male people who will "pass" that SRY test if they take it for some reason... This is a dumb ass way to try and define the woman's category... which is about the expected result of bigots trying to work backwards from the result they want headlines about.

> There's also cis-male people who will "pass" that SRY test if they take it for some reason... This is news to me - which males are you talking about here? > This is a dumb ass way to try and define the woman's category... It's really not, though. They found a marker they can test for, and have clearly defined exceptions.

> This is news to me - which males are you talking about here?

This poor bloke who found out he was infertile during a premarital medical exam, for instance: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/

> It's really not, though. They found a marker they can test for, and have clearly defined exceptions.

Have you heard of the politician's fallacy, "something needs to be done, this is something, so this needs to be done"...

Your argument here is that... needing a test, and having a test, doesn't mean it's the right test.

You're also assuming that we even need a test... evidence (no transfemale olympians ever coming not dead last) suggests we don't.

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