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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#861

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

wzdd wrote: post #799
leobg wrote: post #711

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to teach the recipes to their kids, or make better versions of them. That is absurd. Copyright law is designed to strike a balance between two issues. One the one hand, the creator’s personality that’s baked into the specific form of expression. And on the other hand, society’s interest in ideas being circulated, improved an…

The stuff about copyright seems irrelevant. OpenAI's future investments -- billions -- were just threatened to be undercut by several orders of magnitude by a competitor. It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. If they can do so by implying that OpenAI are in fact the source of most of the DeepSeek's performance then all the better. It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling…

"It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling legal argument around copyright, or even if it's true they actually copied."

Indeed, when the alleged infringer is outside US jurisdiction and not violating any local laws in the country where it's domiciled.

The fact that Microsoft cannot even get this app removed from "app stores" tells us all we need to know.

It will be OpenAI and others who will be copying DeepSeek.

Some of us would _love_ to see Microsoft try to assert copyright over a LLM. The question might not be decided in their favour, putting a spectre over all their investment. It is not a risk worth taking.

Anyone remember this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Zamos

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#862

Post by vitaflo »

buyucu wrote: post #454
bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

I'm willing to bet ''ban DeepSeek'' voices will start soon. Why compete, when you can just ban?

All you would do by banning it is killing US progress in AI. The rest of the world is still going to be able to use DS. You're just giving the rest of the world a leg up.

TikTok is a consumption tool, DS is a productive one. They aren't the same.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#865

Post by herodoturtle »

riantogo wrote: post #461
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

Why would it cast any doubt? If you can use o1 output to build a better R1. Then use R1 output to build a better X1... then a better X2.. XN, that just shows a method to create better systems for a fraction of the cost from where we stand. If it was that obvious OpenAI should have themselves done. But the disruptors did it. It hindsight it might sound obvious, but that is true for all innovations. It is all good stuf…

Thanks for the insightful comment.

I have a question (disclaimer: reinforcement learning noob here):

Is there a risk of broken telephone with this?

Kinda like repeatedly compressing an already compressed image eventually leads to a fuzzy blur.

If that is the case then I’m curious how this is monitored and / or mitigated.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#866

Post by anothernewdude »

riantogo wrote: post #461
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

Why would it cast any doubt? If you can use o1 output to build a better R1. Then use R1 output to build a better X1... then a better X2.. XN, that just shows a method to create better systems for a fraction of the cost from where we stand. If it was that obvious OpenAI should have themselves done. But the disruptors did it. It hindsight it might sound obvious, but that is true for all innovations. It is all good stuf…

If they're training R1 on o1 output on the benchmarks - then I don't trust those benchmarks results for R1. It means the model is liable to be brittle, and they need to prove otherwise.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#867

Post by grogenaut »

nelblu wrote: post #131

Hahaha I can't stop laughing... i dont know the validity of the claim, but immediately i thought of the British Museum complaining about theft.

there's an exhibit in the BM about how they're proud to be allowing the Egyptian government to take back some of the artifacts the British have been safeguarding for the world while Egypt was going through essentially "troubles".

right next to it is an older exhibit about how the original curator took cuneiform rolls and made them into necklace beads for his wife and rings? for himself.

either someone at the BM has a very british sense of humor or it's a gigantic woosh. I laughed my ass off. People looked at me.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#868

Post by seizethecheese »

bangaladore wrote: post #435
bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

> So they'll go for getting DeepSeek banned like TikTok was now that a precedent has been set ? Can't really ban what can be downloaded for free and hosted by anyone. There are many providers hosting the ~700B parameter version that aren't CCP aligned.

> Can't really ban what can be downloaded for free and hosted by anyone.

Like music? They banned napster

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#869

Post by bicepjai »

Reading this post, I can’t help but wonder if people realize the irony in what they’re saying. 1. “The issue is when you [take it out of the platform and] are doing it to create your own model for your own purposes,” 2. “There’s a technique in AI called distillation . . . when one model learns from another model [and] kind of sucks the knowledge out of the parent model,”

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#870

Post by petesergeant »

bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

> So they'll go for getting DeepSeek banned like TikTok

The UAE (where I live, happily, and by choice), which desperately wants to be the center of the world in AI and is spending vast time and treasure to make it happen (they've even got their own excellent, government-funded foundation model), would _love_ this. Any attempt to ban DeepSeek in the US would be the most gigantic self-own. Combine that with no income tax, a fantastic standard of living, and a willingness to very easily give out visas to smart people from anywhere in the world, and I have to imagine it is one of several countries desperate for the US to do something so utterly stupid.

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