Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

861–870 of 1001 posts

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#861

Post by freemint »

kaitai wrote: post #596
freemint wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference between treatment of mtf and ftm can be mostly boiled down to difference how males being female spaces VS females being in male spaces is perceived. For trans exclusionary feminists one is the patriarchy coming to female protective places and females claiming their place and undermining the patriarchy. As for parents males being less susceptible to forceful sexual exploitation is true but there…

The protection of female virtue is also an enormously successful political tactic, from the "yellow peril" in the late 1890s in Europe and the US to the "white slavery" panic (specifically referring to the cultural phenomenon in the US that gave rise to the 1910 Mann Act; check out the contrasting commentary of Emma Goldman and Rose Livingston) to the murder of Emmett Till and the burning down of Black Wall Street in…

Interesting I wasn't aware of all of these patriarchic laws.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#862

Post by CRConrad »

erklik wrote: post #847
blindmute wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because there is no reason to have animosity toward a woman becoming a man. The main objections to MtF are about safety (a MtF will always be stronger and bigger than a woman on average) and fairness (should male born people get female scholarships, compete in women's sports?). A FtM is not hurting anything or taking any opportunities away from anyone really.

> fairness (should male born people get female scholarships, compete in women's sports?). A FtM is not hurting anything or taking any opportunities away from anyone really fairness is an issue when considering MtF, but not FtM? why exactly?

Transitioning female to male doesn't make you more likely to win Olympic weightlifting competitions in your new gender, so you'd be vanishingly unlikely to do it for the sake of gaining an advantage.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#863

Post by kaitai »

handrous wrote: post #604
makeworld wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean li…

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe th…

Agree with you given my experience. Kids question many things (religion, cultural norms, fashion norms, etc) and gender is now something that one can question, so it happens. And why not? People have been wrestling with gender roles for centuries, from questions of royal succession to whether women could inherit property or not to suffrage. Yet gender roles continue to be rather prescriptive. What intelligent kid wouldn't dig into why? And why would they take the thoughts of "the olds" as the last word when youth have never done so in human history?

So do what you'd do when your kid is rebelling against their religion or curfew or your selection of their college major. Talk about it and ask what's up. Express your own views, respectfully. Listen.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#864

Post by TimTheTinker »

dougmwne wrote: post #462
TimTheTinker wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to me that sexuality and identity are so intertwined. Why should someone "come out" as anything? (I know a lot of people "come out" as various things in a mere bid for attention... I'll leave that issue aside.) If I knew someone casually for a while who never talked about his/her sexuality, but one day they said "I never said this before, but I'm a heterosexual", I'd certainly feel awkward about it. Why di…

It's only weird to you because you are almost certainly straight, cis and male. Let me explain. All of society is structured around your identity. Like the fish, you can't even see the water because you have always been in it. I'm unlikely to help you see the water, but let me at least try. If you meet a friend, he might comment he saw a movie with his new girlfriend. He shows you a photo on his phone and you say she…

Thanks for the thoughtful comment.

I wasn't thinking as much about normal conversations - "I was at lunch with my boyfriend", etc. It's one thing to say that, it's quite another to make statements to people about what sort of sex you want to have -- that's what I find awkward.

I guess the takeaway is that sex is pretty central to civilization and society, as it's a prerequisite to and determinant of family structure. It really is part of our identity.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#865

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #859
9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interfering with the opinion of another is contrary to the principles of human rights. https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

Disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't interfering with it.

Marginalizing someone’s identity is interference with a person’s honor, also contrary to the principles of human rights.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#866

Post by freemint »

plank_time wrote: post #402
millzlane wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether or not TERF constitutes a slur. But if we want to be accommodating to those who take offense with the term, we can use the term Gender Critical.

“Trans-exclusionary radical feminist” sounds pretty pejorative, most especially the “radical” part.

I think "trans-exclusionary conservative feminist" would be way more pejorative to the feminists in question.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#867

Post by mc32 »

slg wrote: post #860
mc32 wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this raises a few questions. Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years? Why does this affect as many youths as it does today? No doubt there was unhappiness with one's identity in the past, but I doubt it was at the level it is today. And, in addition, I doubt it's at the same elevated level in all countries. In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you as a kid feel unhappy with your identity…

>In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you feel unhappy with your identity as much as today's youth feel about their identities but couldn't wouldn't express it? This won't be accurate for a few reasons. First, there are certainly people in denial about these feelings. A society that is more hostile to trans people will yield a society that has more trans people denying their true identity. That should b…

According to parent comment a significant fraction of the cohort are experiencing some form of unhappiness with their identities. If that is true, and a handful of commenters are making similar claims, then we could have seen alarming numbers of suicides amongst teenage girls, but we have not, so we'd have plenty of survivors to interview and understand better.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#868

Post by [deleted] »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #823
btilly wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

I hate to wade into a controversial topic where I'm under-educated and have limited info/opinions; but for what little it is worth to add to anecdata - the current cohort of 12-15 year old girls in my friend/family circle are virtually all in some level of gender dysphoria. Most of their parents are supportive and loving but... panicked, I guess - completely uncertain what to do, how best to help them, and without ro…

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#870

Post by freemint »

neartheplain wrote: post #794
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly, trans people get beaten to death far out of proportion to their numbers. No, I don't have statistics, but if true you can't just look at the number of trans people to see how serious the problem is.

Here are the numbers: In 2019, the most recent year for which the FBI has data, the total US homicide rate was 4.3 deaths per 100,000 people [0] (possible underestimate; incident reporting is voluntary, and 25% of police departments don't submit expanded homicide data). Human Rights Campaign recorded the deaths of 25 transgender and gender non-conforming people in 2019 [1]. There are an estimated 1 million people who…

Don't role your own aggregate statistics when the thing you try to derive by mashing together things created for different purposes is measured or estimated by people.

I don't role my own encryption for public use either.

Post reply on HN