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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#861

Post by nuker »

nwienert wrote: post #735
mullingitover wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. I have the choice of buying a completely controllable android device if I want to install mystery apps willy-nilly. I'm not interested in that, and there are millions like me. I want a locked-down device that keeps developers in check. This situation is much like the browser nightmares of the past, where Firefox users complained…

So, let’s apply this same logic to accessibility. Let’s say the government says “devices must have voice over functionality”. Ok, great. Apple puts that as an option, and we’re done. The same applies for if the government said “you have a right to install apps of your choice”. Apple adds a setting in the settings menu. You still get your locked down device by default, and much like blind people, people who care about…

> if the government said “you have a right to install apps of your choice”. Apple adds a setting in the settings menu. You still get your locked down device by default,

Users will just flip it off for the first evil app they told to install by friends. Think about 95% of all users.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#862

Post by redwall_hp »

nodamage wrote: post #832
DeusExMachina wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common and reasonable according to which standards? One of the arguments of Epic in court is that Apple set the standard and other stores are simply following it.

That's a pretty silly argument considering Steam launched with a 30% fee a full 5 years before the App Store was even a thing.

I can also buy games from other places than Steam. I cannot install iPhone apps I download online. That little detail changes the situation entirely.

I don't care what Apple charges if I can install a binary without dealing with their store.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#863

Post by mthoms »

bhupy wrote: post #839
mthoms wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The principle that would be applied when considering game consoles. What "principle" is that, specifically ? I genuinely don't understand. Is it my usage of disparaging terms? If so, that's fair. If not, can you articulate why the idea put forth that it's useless to compare consoles and smartphones is somehow violating a "first principle". What first principle does that idea violate?

To summarize the conversation so far: burlesona extended an analogy by suggesting that console software lock-in is a feature that gamers seek out, and for those gamers that don't like it, there is a more than acceptable option that other gamers seek out. Their argument is that the principles that would apply with gaming consoles should also in theory also apply with app-based mobile phones. You countered that it was…

You misread my comment. I wasn't advocating for, or against, Apple or any other company. My comment applied to the entire smartphone market, and how it was different from the entire console market.

Saying that because a certain model (seemingly) works in consoles, that it should also work in phones is lazy thinking. Saying "the iPhone is a console, end of story" is a ridiculous analogy. It's also an analogy that exclusively comes from (predominantly white) wealthy westerners.

Try asking anyone not in the top 5% of the worlds wealth if a gaming console and a smart phone are of comparable importance. Then, ask them if smartphones and consoles should be afforded similar consideration and protections by their society.

You'll be laughed out of the room because there's no comparison. One gives them access to the entirety of the worlds knowledge, the ability to communicate with anyone in the world, and captures deeply intimate thoughts and ideas. While the other...?

It plays Grand Theft Auto[0].

The rest of your argument, seems to be that "the market will sort it out" and any interference with the space will stifle growth and innovation. Maybe. But I'm sorry, that's not a universal "first principle", that's an opinion. My opinion is that smart legislation could actually accelerate growth and innovation while at the same time enhancing user freedoms and protections. But that's getting off track and wasn't the point I was making:

Equating smartphones with gaming consoles is as intellectually lazy as it is troubling.

[0] I love GTA, and gaming in general, so this is not a knock on it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#864

Post by lern_too_spel »

zepto wrote: post #827
lern_too_spel wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of evidence from Android that it would benefit both users and developers.

Android is not a model for this. Stores on Android simply don’t have equal footing with the play store. Epic is suing Google too over this.

Epic is suing Google for pressuring OEMs against preinstalling its app store on devices, not for preventing users from installing its app store themselves. It's true that app stores not signed with the system key can't automatically update apps, and users would benefit even more if they could, but users already benefit from being able to install apps outside of the official app store at all.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#865

Post by lern_too_spel »

TYPE_FASTER wrote: post #857
lern_too_spel wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer and a user, I do prioritize Android. People don't buy luxury jeans because they are better jeans than Levi's. People buy luxury jeans because of marketing. The same applies here. Consider how many people in the HN comments say they like iPhone because of privacy even though it is so clearly worse for privacy (can't install an app on your device without telling Apple, can't get your GPS location without…

> can't get your GPS location without telling Apple, etc.). I'd rather an iOS app have location listed as a capability in the manifest than have Android send my location to Google for the purpose of selling advertising based on store visits.

Me too. Luckily, on Android, apps must also request the location permission, and you don't have to send your location to anybody. This is unlike iOS, where Apple gets your location no matter what.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#866

Post by nodamage »

mthoms wrote: post #791
jVinc wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the smartphone has grown beyond a simple "nice-to-have" utility. Lets frame the discussion accordingly indeed. Not all gaming machines are consoles and not all smartphones are iPhones. Why should we prevent Sony from providing a console just because the PC is much more than a nice-to-have utility and their console competes with PC's? Apple is not a monopoly, and they are not even the majority of smart phones. W…

I don't follow what point you're making. I mentioned nothing about monopolies, disallowing anyone from making a phone or console(?), nor Apple specifically. My comment was about smartphones in general. It's pretty simple. Gaming consoles are primarily (almost exclusively) for entertainment. Smartphones are for accessing information, essential services (ie. banking), directions, forecasts, and news. They also facilita…

> Absolutely terrible analogy. How about instead you were denied the right to own a smartphone?

Who exactly has been denied the right to own a smartphone? Speaking of terrible analogies...

You are repeatedly conflating the iPhone with all smartphones. Saying that the smartphone is a mandatory device does not contradict the idea that the iPhone (a specific luxury brand of smartphone) is not.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#867

Post by lern_too_spel »

zepto wrote: post #826
lern_too_spel wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer and a user, I do prioritize Android. People don't buy luxury jeans because they are better jeans than Levi's. People buy luxury jeans because of marketing. The same applies here. Consider how many people in the HN comments say they like iPhone because of privacy even though it is so clearly worse for privacy (can't install an app on your device without telling Apple, can't get your GPS location without…

Privacy is better on iOS because it’s not about what goes to Apple - it’s about what goes to 3rd parties. Also you seem to be just wrong. iOS doesn’t inform Apple when apps make GPS location requests.

Android allows the user to prevent data from going to third parties as well. The difference is it also allows the user to prevent data from from going to the OS manufacturer. This is strictly greater privacy.

You are wrong about GPS location requests:

"By enabling Location Services for your devices, you agree and consent to the transmission, collection, maintenance, processing, and use of your location data and location search queries by Apple and its partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based and road traffic-based products and services."

It will also send your location to Apple when no app is requesting your location:

"If Location Services is on, your iPhone will periodically send the geo-tagged locations of nearby Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers in an anonymous and encrypted form to Apple, to be used for augmenting this crowd-sourced database of Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower locations."

Unlike on Android, you cannot get your location without sending this data to Apple:

"To use features such as these, you must enable Location Services on your iPhone"

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT20705

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#868

Post by mthoms »

lewdev wrote: post #842
burlesona wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing you are saying is false, but why can't people who want a different experience just buy an Android or alternative phone? A smartphone may be an essential utility, but an iPhone specifically is not. I feel your argument is like saying I want my car to be gas-powered and I want it to be a Tesla. It doesn't matter that it that many other manufacturers exist, I demand Tesla make gas-powered cars so that I can buy…

Absolutely. The iPhone is actually a "nice to have" utility. A $100 phone from Walmart will fulfill the "base-level necessities for modern life." The game console is an awesome analogy.

Right, but I wasn't speaking about iPhones, I was speaking about smartphones in general.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#869

Post by dleslie »

im3w1l wrote: post #371
dleslie wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PinePhone is available to order right now; and it's cheap as hell.

From what I heard there are some wrinkles to iron out before it's ready for the mass market, but I must admit I have not looked into it closely yet.

I bought one. My Blackberry Key2 is getting a little worn.

Join the weird fringe phone crew.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#870

Post by martimarkov »

I love how these companies are fighting the “good fight” but if I don’t accept their cookies with my Adblock on... oh well I can use the page.

Even tried to only accept necessary cookies but nope... not working

I just feel it’s a bit ironic. :D

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