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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#741

Post by zepto »

Apocryphon wrote: post #720
zepto wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your premise seems to be that the current situation on Android is a good model for what would happen on iOS. Epic themselves are suing Google because android doesn’t actually allow competing stores to operate in an equal footing. That’s really all that is needed to dismiss this like of argument. My extrapolation is not being borne out on Android because Android also doesn’t allow stores to compete on an equal footing…

If you're going to dismiss the majority of my arguments and points, as well as reality in favor of your own framing, then you're refusing to debate in good faith. Epic's lawsuit is immaterial, imo. We don't know how the courts will decide. Rather, what's being debated is what a hypothetical open iOS will look like. Even if they lose the lawsuit, Pandora's box has been opened. Years of developer dissatisfaction and co…

I assume your argument invoking Android as a model wasn’t in bad faith, and I can certainly dismiss the conclusions of it in good faith too, because it is inapplicable as a model.

And no - I don’t have to provide examples of where Facebook, Microsoft etc, have already “caused trouble”. It just has to be reasonable to expect them to want to compete, and to employ commonly used tactics that are not necessarily good for developers or consumers. That is all I am suggesting. Facebook and Microsoft have been hyper competitive companies who generally do whatever they can get away with. Neither are known as friends of either developers or consumers, although I accept that Microsoft has been doing better since they have been an underdog. This is common knowledge.

As for opening up the Apple opening the App Store on their own terms, or indeed a bootcamp solution enabling people to do whatever they want with the hardware: I’m actually in favor of these, and I think talking about them is constructive.

What I am not in favor of is Epic winning a court supervised solution, and I separately think that simply assuming that more choices are better is a dangerous dogma that could easily make things a lot worse.

I actually strongly believe we need the smartphone software environment to be opened, but the path by which that occurs and the nature of the openness obtained is very important to whether there is a net gain for anyone other than the already rich and powerful.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#742

Post by hellotomyrars »

pb7 wrote: post #564
bluedevil2k wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, we should side with the multi-trillion dollar company that refuses to pay taxes on their multi-billion dollar profits.

Apple, like every other company and individual, pays every dollar they owe and not a penny more. If this weren't the case, the IRS would be rolling up to their doorstep. If you don't like the tax laws, then petition them to be changed and I will support you. And yes, let's side with the company that became worth a trillion dollars by virtue of providing billions of people with devices and services that enrich their l…

If someone commits a crime, like murder, but isn't convicted of it because a jury declared them innocent it doesn't change the fact that they did murder someone.

Apple may get away with it because they can afford to spend millions on both lobbying and finding every way to avoid paying taxes that people without the same resources would otherwise pay, but that doesn't make it okay.

We don't have to side with either of these incredibly wealthy corporations having a money fight. They can both be criticized and we can demand better.

Personally I love my iPhone/iPad because I truly feel they are the best mobile hardware available. For the same reason, I have 0 interest in the Mac ecosystem because it's objectively not the best hardware on the market. (Especially as a cost-conscious person). The wheels they sell for the Mac Pro are more expensive than the iPhone I bought from them (iPhone SE 2nd Gen). Absurd.

I would like an officially sanctioned way to sideload onto my iPhone. I am in favor of court decision that would force them to allow you to bypass the walled garden. I think it's a very simple answer to the overall issue at hand. I doubt the majority of iOS users are going to bother with it if the functionality was there, and it solves the walled garden monopoly issue.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#743

Post by seneca »

alkonaut wrote: post #736
geodel wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more of "free to criticize' vs 'free to destroy livelihood' thing. Some would say both are same or second is just an implementation detail of first.

Free speech is the right to not be arrested for speaking. It's not the right to not be punched in the face for saying stupid things (there is a separate law for face punching).

> Free speech is the right to not be arrested for speaking. It's not the right to not be punched in the face for saying stupid things (there is a separate law for face punching).

No, the 1st Amendment is the right to not be arrested for speaking (in the United States). Free Speech is a philosophy that would absolutely cover not committing physical violence against someone for what they say. Violence in response to speech is probably a good starting point for the definition of unfree speech.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#744

Post by WA »

apetrovic wrote: post #740

I think that some of points are valid - especially the direct contact with the consumers. But the grand prize that Epic wants, the ability for anyone to put App store on iPhone, I hope that will never happen. I don't care about Epic, but the moment when that is allowed is the moment when three app stores into existence - Google's, Microsoft's and Facebook's. Most people can't avoid using software from these three com…

Why should an App Store need to be always active?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#745

Post by gehatare »

zepto wrote: post #721
lern_too_spel wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is already both more developer friendly and more consumer friendly than iOS despite not having full automatic update support for third party app stores. If that were in place, it would be even better.

This is clearly not true. If it were, developers and consumers would prioritize Android.

In what way do consumers not prioritize Android devices? Android has about 75% market share.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#746

Post by yazaddaruvala »

leetcrew wrote: post #702
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this number of completly inexperienced user is not proven to be as large, if you look at Android or OSX you don't see 51% of users having malware on their machine > "protecting" an unknown small number of users by limiting the rest makes no sense, what makes more sense is MONEY For creating policies 51% is a bad measure. Its inherently biased to be regressive. Setting policies at 51% disproportionately hurts the bo…

I absolutely resent the implication that protecting the bottom n% of gullible users is mutually exclusive with giving power users the access they desire. they seem to do a decent job of it on their OSX machines, so why not iOS?

You're right! I disagree that the perfectly balanced system is OSX but overall I agree iPhones should have better "hack-ability".

As I've posted elsewhere:

I agree, Apple should make it easier to boot non-iOS iPhones. Even provide some tools to write custom OSes for the iPhone hardware. However, Apple should only provide that service to the registered adult owner of the device, in person at an Apple store after delivering the caveats that the device will no longer be supported by Apple (regardless of resale) and any warranty is void.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#747

Post by burlesona »

mthoms wrote: post #237
burlesona wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

>To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. I'm so tired of hearing this ridiculous analogy. From a purely technical stand point it may be true, but for a large chunk of the population, the smartphone is their one and only connection to the digital world. It controls their connection to their bank accounts, governments, news/discourse, family, friends, dating life, education (formal and informal), medical informati…

Nothing you are saying is false, but why can't people who want a different experience just buy an Android or alternative phone? A smartphone may be an essential utility, but an iPhone specifically is not.

I feel your argument is like saying I want my car to be gas-powered and I want it to be a Tesla. It doesn't matter that it that many other manufacturers exist, I demand Tesla make gas-powered cars so that I can buy a Tesla and run it on the energy source of my choice.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#748

Post by greycol »

temp667 wrote: post #619
gpm wrote: post #208

All the arguments about what company is most evil entirely miss the point. You don't make a decision on a specific issue based on what company you like more, you base it on who is right on the specific issue. From an ethical perspective that's what having a codified rule of laws is all about. Everyone get's the same rules no matter how much you like them. You don't arbitrarily punish people for doing things you don't…

The question from a principle standpoint is - can a company create an area where trust / safety / security are prioritized. T Developers no doubt disagree with this, they have created a web that is filled with crap. Let's be 100% clear about that. Spam calls via voip, spam into email, ddos floods of every sort imaginable, impossible to unsubscribe, cramming and slamming on subscription renewals and the list goes on.…

Sure Apple can create their area of trust/safety/security in their apple store allowing those who want that to stay there. They can't however do that on a device they've sold to customers.

The question from a principle standpoint is - can companies stop a customer from modifying a device they own when it only effects the customer.

Or more realistically there is more than one question and you have to make trade offs between the right answer to all of them (and what people believe the right answer to be).

My view is: Make it hard to install out of App store, warn people about all the security/trust/safety there losing each time they enable a fine grained permissions. It's a simple security rule; don't install anything not in the app store, yes pay the 30% premium for that security. Yes it's not perfect but the current situation definitely isn't either.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#749

Post by zepto »

gehatare wrote: post #745
zepto wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is clearly not true. If it were, developers and consumers would prioritize Android.

In what way do consumers not prioritize Android devices? Android has about 75% market share.

Consumers do not prioritize Android devices as a market for buying apps. Android has 75% market share but iOS users have spent twice as much in total on apps.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#750

Post by burlesona »

izacus wrote: post #188
burlesona wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

> To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. This would be true if iPhone would be only a toy. But it's also the only source of person-to-person communication, source of news and primary computing device for large part of USA population. And that makes it very different from a PS5. By market share. By use. By impact. And IMPACT is what we're measuring here.

The fact that is is my primary communication device is the REASON I want my iPhone to be a console. I'm paying extra for it.

But this is very important: Nobody has to buy an iPhone. The majority of people around the world buy Android, which does allow side-loading. If you need side-loading as a feature, you have many, many options available.

There's no coercion of consumers going on. There's no mandate to buy an iPhone or to use any part of the Apple ecosystem, and there are abundant alternatives.

Ultimately these arguments against the Apple model are very judgmental and paternalistic. "I think that Experience X is the only morally right thing, thus society must prohibit people who bought and like Experience Y from enjoying it, because I think it's morally wrong."

To me that's a really dangerous line of thinking, and I hope it fails in court.

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