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Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

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Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#851

Post by duskdozer »

saubeidl wrote: post #839
CrzyLngPwd wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. Freedom of speech for me, not for thee, eh? I don't want my politicians deciding what is good or bad on the internet. I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself.

Because freedom of speech was always a misguided creed at best. The speech of the manipulator is not the same as the speech of the expert and they shouldn't be given the same treatment, lest you want psychological warfare waged on your nation. American free speech extremists like these tech CEOs are either willing patsies or useful idiots in the hybrid warfare against Europe.

>American free speech extremists like these tech CEOs

well, claim to be free speech extremists at least

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#852

Post by mattmaroon »

ako wrote: post #830
mattmaroon wrote: post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this argument, and why free speech absolutism is the only stance that makes sense, is that someone always has a good reason why you need to throw the bathwater out right now, baby be dammed. The end result is worse than the disinformation.

How do you know the end result is worse than disinformation? If the Russian disinformation allow Russia to destroy the freedom and democracy in Europe, and allow Russia to take over, that seems to me to much worse than limiting the publication of lies and slander.

Because whoever gets to determine what lies and slander are become your new dictators.

If the problem is Russian bots, there’s a much easier way to solve it: make Facebook and the platforms that allow them to spread financially liable.

You’re unironically arguing that giving up your freedom is a protection against losing your freedom.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#853

Post by saubeidl »

duskdozer wrote: post #851
saubeidl wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because freedom of speech was always a misguided creed at best. The speech of the manipulator is not the same as the speech of the expert and they shouldn't be given the same treatment, lest you want psychological warfare waged on your nation. American free speech extremists like these tech CEOs are either willing patsies or useful idiots in the hybrid warfare against Europe.

>American free speech extremists like these tech CEOs well, claim to be free speech extremists at least

Indeed. I think with some of the more government-aligned oligarchs it's more of a pretense to enable said information warfare.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#854

Post by llm_nerd »

asgeesg wrote: post #565
llm_nerd wrote: post #401

I suspect the "we're an American company and we're going to get the government protection racket to threaten you" gambit isn't going to achieve the results he's hoping for. I was reading through this and at first I saw Italy as the bad guys, demanding ridiculous asks. The moment the "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." nonsense appeared, followed right after by callouts to Vance and Musk, and threats that he's goi…

[dead]

Two things can be true-

a) sovereign nations can impose literally any rule they want on foreign businesses, even if those rules are ridiculous, arbitrary, or defy the "freedom" values of some other country.

b) This incredibly tired "I'm telling Daddy Trump!" bit is pathetic, and it, among with the fact that America is currently -- by far -- the most dangerous country on the planet, should yield garbage people like Price getting their ass handed to them.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#855

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

Cringey and childish appeals to US government and billionaires aside, it’s funny how this is framed as “Magnanimous Free Speech Technology Company” vs “Evil European Bureaucratic Shadow Cabal” when the latter is more like “Massive Sports Monopoly Regulatory Capture”.

When corporate entities do something bad, like attempting to maximize profits by capturing regulatory entities and bending them to their will, it’s the government’s fault. It’s laundering agency: the corporation has no agency because it simply seeks to maximize profits, but the bureaucrats have agency and are therefore morally wrong (Cloudflare CEO appealing to morals in his tweet).

Very few comments in this thread decrying the root of the issue, which is that the football media empire has grown large enough that they’re imposing negative outcomes on the pubic hand that feeds them.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#856

Post by saubeidl »

mattmaroon wrote: post #852
ako wrote: post #830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know the end result is worse than disinformation? If the Russian disinformation allow Russia to destroy the freedom and democracy in Europe, and allow Russia to take over, that seems to me to much worse than limiting the publication of lies and slander.

Because whoever gets to determine what lies and slander are become your new dictators. If the problem is Russian bots, there’s a much easier way to solve it: make Facebook and the platforms that allow them to spread financially liable. You’re unironically arguing that giving up your freedom is a protection against losing your freedom.

Hear me out, but: You can elect a commission of experts to be deciding this. Term limits. Separate independent institution from the government.

That's not a dictator. You're just grasping for hyperbole to prop up an ideological point.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#857

Post by saubeidl »

abc123abc123 wrote: post #751
dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

WTF? How are you attacked by russian accounts? This childish notion of thinking that only "true" thoughts are allowed under free speech, and the rest must be eradicated needs to die. If you don't like the risk of russian accounts, don't follow them, and follow accounts that you like. It's as easy as that. You have news, government news sites, journalists, newspapers, it's never been easier to find sources to trust an…

I don't like the risk of the mouth-breather next door reading Russian propaganda, it's not myself I'm concerned about.

In a democracy, most people are unfortunately stupid and easily manipulable. We can't let the Russians (or the Americans!) use them as their proxy.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#858

Post by mattmaroon »

saubeidl wrote: post #856
mattmaroon wrote: post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because whoever gets to determine what lies and slander are become your new dictators. If the problem is Russian bots, there’s a much easier way to solve it: make Facebook and the platforms that allow them to spread financially liable. You’re unironically arguing that giving up your freedom is a protection against losing your freedom.

Hear me out, but: You can elect a commission of experts to be deciding this. Term limits. Separate independent institution from the government. That's not a dictator. You're just grasping for hyperbole to prop up an ideological point.

It’s called a jury. We have those. They’re the commission that determines if something is slander.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#859

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

philipwhiuk wrote: post #628
ExpertAdvisor01 wrote: post #300

I don’t understand why they are tying the fine amount to global revenue rather than Italian revenue. Any Italian here who can explain it ?

Easy. Tech companies love revenue and profit shifting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich The sales are 'made' in the US despite the customer and the "sales team" in the country.

Ehm This is already completely outdated. Every EU country has now strict transfer pricing laws

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#860

Post by mrec »

saubeidl wrote: post #839
CrzyLngPwd wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. Freedom of speech for me, not for thee, eh? I don't want my politicians deciding what is good or bad on the internet. I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself.

Because freedom of speech was always a misguided creed at best. The speech of the manipulator is not the same as the speech of the expert and they shouldn't be given the same treatment, lest you want psychological warfare waged on your nation. American free speech extremists like these tech CEOs are either willing patsies or useful idiots in the hybrid warfare against Europe.

> The speech of the manipulator is not the same as the speech of the expert

I don't think that's contentious. The point of free speech is not that all speech is equally valuable or positive. It's that I don't trust you to decide which speech shouldn't be allowed, because that power will 100% be abused, until it's just as pernicious as the "manipulators" it's claiming to defend against.

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