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Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

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Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#851

Post by MangoToupe »

pembrook wrote: post #296
MangoToupe wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't see the issue. The GDPR isn't exactly difficult to comply with, nor does it hamper any of the clear successes of the last 25 years outside of the ad industry. What's the benefit of backing out on it? Is this just an effort to make a homegrown surveillance network?

Ughhh here we go again. Every time GDPR is brought up on HN, the same "it's super simple to comply, just read it yourself!" religious incantation gets repeated ad-nauseam. I think it's because people love the idea of what they think GDPR actually represents (the fuzzy abstract idea of "privacy"), without ever diving into any of the implementation details. Almost nobody on this forum has ever talked to a lawyer about…

> I think it's because people love the idea of what they think GDPR actually represents (the fuzzy abstract idea of "privacy"), without ever diving into any of the implementation details.

I've implemented it like a half-dozen times. Why do you think I'm so confident? It's truly not very difficult, particularly if you don't have to retrofit some hell-app that uses a billion cookies. For the most part, collecting PII is already a liability and you don't want to do this anyway outside of critical information (e.g., email).

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#852

Post by throw9018 »

kriops wrote: post #771
bjourne wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the perfect and correct antidote to any slippery slope argument. If the consequences of the law turns out to be as bad as you say they will be then we adjust the law.

Nothing is more permanent in politics than temporary solution. As a Norwegian, for example, I am still paying a temporary 25% on all spending that was enacted as a "temporary" measure over 100 years ago. Control Theory does not work (in the general) for politics for the simple reason that incentives are misaligned. That is to say that control theory itself obviosuly works, but for it to be a good solution in some pol…

As a counterpoint to the selectorate theory, see Thorsen's PhD dissertation, "Only In It for Power and Wealth?", https://politica.dk/fileadmin/politica/Dokumenter/Afhandling...

The thesis argues that dictators regularly both harm groups clearly inside the winning coalition, and please groups clearly outside of it. A common, but not the only reason, is ideology.

One has to be careful when using game-theory models on messy human entities. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and it's hard to determine just at what point the model breaks down. At least without empirical research.

(Another example is that actual negotiation outcomes rarely end up at the minimax or Nash product equilibria that game theory sequential negotiation concepts would suggest.)

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#853

Post by Workaccount2 »

epolanski wrote: post #828

I'm not understanding, as an European who's been part of multiple startups how's that supposed to boost growth. There's literally 0 startups I've been part of where data protection laws or even the infamous cookie banners have been anywhere near relevant (unless your business was literally profiling). In fact the actors that most opposed those laws have always been non Europeans. Sure, there is an attached cost in ha…

The biggest hurdle Europe has to face is the cultural shift away from the post-soviet era of "Don't take work too seriously, enjoy life".

There is now a full generation of Europeans who grew up in with this mentality, looking down on Americans for their ridiculous work ethic and comparatively meager benefits.

But it's not sustainable, and the strain is already becoming obvious. Young Europeans will have to work longer and harder for less if they want to move Europe away from being totally dependent on American tech, American defense, and Chinese wares.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#854

Post by asveikau »

epolanski wrote: post #828

I'm not understanding, as an European who's been part of multiple startups how's that supposed to boost growth. There's literally 0 startups I've been part of where data protection laws or even the infamous cookie banners have been anywhere near relevant (unless your business was literally profiling). In fact the actors that most opposed those laws have always been non Europeans. Sure, there is an attached cost in ha…

> an European

European starts with a vowel in spelling, but actually phonerically begins with a consonant, /j/, so it doesn't trigger the "an" thing.

Similarly some spellings start with a consonant but have vowels (like acronyms, "an SSRI", the name of the letter S, "ess", begins with a vowel)

More to the point I agree with what you're saying. This seems like lazy attribution of cause that is so common in American business and politics. "Of course deregulation will boost growth!" Why? Because of religious beliefs about deregulation boosting growth.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#855

Post by moralestapia »

intended wrote: post #849
moralestapia wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

But where would you rather be an average Joe ? Your health outcomes alone are better in the EU. I think we all agree that looking at GDP figures needs to be supplemented with wealth distribution data.

>But where would you rather be an average Joe?

In the US. By far!

And migration data backs it up.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#856

Post by mortarion »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #837
epolanski wrote: post #828

I'm not understanding, as an European who's been part of multiple startups how's that supposed to boost growth. There's literally 0 startups I've been part of where data protection laws or even the infamous cookie banners have been anywhere near relevant (unless your business was literally profiling). In fact the actors that most opposed those laws have always been non Europeans. Sure, there is an attached cost in ha…

I would go farther. Privacy laws seem like an excellent way to tighten the internal European market and develop homegrown competitors, which (one might argue) Europe really needs. If Europe is loosening up those laws, does that help Europe? Or does it help Meta and Google and Microsoft?

Europe has a shitload of homegrown competitors. The problem is that users here in Europe either goes for a national service or for an US service. They don't look up what their EU neighbor has to offer. In fact, most don't bother translating their services to appeal to the entire EU market.

If you live in country X, you will only ever learn about services from country X or from the US. No one here knows what goes on in neighboring countries.

It's easy to think the EU is like the USA, but it's not, it is still separate sovereign countries with their own language and culture.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#857

Post by brainwad »

Y_Y wrote: post #668
gessha wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying the following regarding Draghi’s report or particular regulation in mind: If an unethical business gets started due to underregulation and it generates revenue and contributes to GDP, is that a good thing?

That depends, are the people who are negatively impacted aware, and able to do anything about it? There are some "mosquito" businesses that imho provide no net value and we'd be better off if they didn't exist (c.f. Bastiat's window breaker⁰). For example; payday loans, gadget insurance, MLMs, f2p games. The trouble is that there is an apparent need they're meeting, and nobody wants to "destroy jobs" or even worry to…

Pay day loans are generally good _for the borrower_ - they aren't just window breaking. The consequences of missing an important payment can be way worse than the high interest on the pay day loan, e.g. if you don't pay for a course in time, they disenroll you and you no longer get to take the course; if you don't pay rent in time, you might get eviction proceedings filed against you; if you don't pay for your car repairs the garage will not return your car and you will lose time every day taking public transport.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#858

Post by senordevnyc »

ptsneves wrote: post #703
senordevnyc wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, online shops that mail stuff to Australian customers who request them to do so don't have to collect or pay any sales tax. The Australian government might stomp their feet and declare otherwise, but they have no legal or jurisdictional authority to do so, nor any real means for enforcement. This trend of countries declaring that everyone on the planet is under their jurisdiction if they mail something there…

> This trend of countries declaring that everyone on the planet is under their jurisdiction if they mail something there (or respond to a network request) is bananas I disagree. Imagine I ban health potions in my realm. I am running a Darwininistic experiment to make my people the most resilient people of the world and I want them to succeed through survival of the fittest. I tolerate non magical medicine but anythin…

I have no idea what you're even trying to say here. Australia is welcome to try and confiscate goods that are mailed without paying sales tax, but we both know they lack the ability to actually execute that. And their ability to do anything about digital sales is basically non-existent.

So if I'm understanding your analogy correctly, the guards can't really do anything, so the merchant and the buyer will be the ones going about their business.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#859

Post by mortarion »

zoobab wrote: post #656
saubeidl wrote: post #150

Shameful decision, caving to foreign capital interests. Do better, EU.

The EU should pass a Foreign Lobbying Ban Act. For example, if you are a french company with american shareholders, you can't lobby the EU.

They can't pass an act like that. USA would retaliate economically.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#860

Post by meowface »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #843
vovavili wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument in favor of protectionist industrial policy is almost universally opposed by most modern economists, for a good reason.

Nations don’t outsource critical national security industries even though economists might say that’s more efficient. The question is whether they should outsource critical tech infrastructure to huge quasi-monopolistic US firms that can turn it off or abuse European data at will. I don’t have the answer to that question, but I have to imagine it’s a worthwhile debate. The data we have cuts both ways: China applied p…

>China applied protectionist policies to its own Internet companies, and it’s hard to argue that this has been economically devastating for them.

China has 1.4 billion people in one country while the combined population of Europe is around half of that, so that's one difference.

But, yes, both US and Chinese technology companies would likely be better off than they are now without China's protectionism and authoritarianism. To the Chinese state, protecting Chinese citizens from harmful things (like knowing full details about atrocities perpetrated by their government, or organizing to criticize the government) outweighs other concerns.

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