Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#851

Post by varispeed » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

The need for wage controls is more apparent in the tech industry. If a hypothetical company with 100 employees registers 10 billion profit and apart from CEO and the board employees make 5 figure salaries, then there is something horribly wrong going on. I think we need a regulation that beyond a certain threshold company should redistribute 30% of profits annually among the staff on top of their salaries. There should also be other restrictions - for example I'd vote for complete removal of dividends. Only way to get paid from a company should be by being an employee and getting a salary taxed as everyone else. The rich have so many loopholes, it is crazy that we allow them to get even richer on the backs of the hard working no name people.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#852

Post by varispeed » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #772

davemp wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government giving more to minimum wage workers instead of raising minimum wage feels like a roundabout way to subsidize businesses that don’t way living wages.

That's exactly how it works in many european countries, especially the ones without a legal minimum wage (Austria for example), so people working "slave" gig jobs (cleaners, delivery, construction and hospitality workers, etc.) where if they earn below a certain "livable' threshold, get various tax credits, subsidies and benefits from the government to reach that "livable" threshold, which, while it sounds good, it c…

What strikes me as weird is that parties that call themselves left-wing opt for this kind of hand outs without realising they are in fact subsidising the rich with workers' money. How this can fly?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#853

Post by marcosdumay » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> The only choice is to either automate, which will reduce the labor requirements, or raise prices and hope that customers won't just go down the street. But they will, they will go down the street--until everyone's prices go up and there is nowhere else to go.

That's why governments created a minimum wage. If the salaries are written into law, there is no place down the street to go. That's also why environmental and hygienic regulations are so successful. Those things simply can not be done without government intervention.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#854

Post by varispeed » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

taurath wrote: post #847

throwawayboise wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who will simply either pass the costs along to the consumer, or shut down.

Why not have the government subsidize purchases at the business, if the goal is to have as close to 0 pricing as possible and ensure the business survives regardless of its utility? People constantly argue for the rights of businesses which pay incredibly poorly, as if that is effecting mom and pop shops which are by and large already closed and gone, and when they were around ended up paying a bit more. Maybe a comm…

I think the problem may also be that mom and pop shops are taxed much more heavily than big multinational corporations, that pay very little tax and thus have huge competitive advantage over small local businesses. I would think that any government caring about the local population would look into getting those companies to pay their fair share.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#855

Post by SkyPuncher » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

AngryData wrote: post #533

dcolkitt wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% is way to high an effective tax rate at that income. Below median earners pay effectively zero taxes with the EITC and standard deductible. $400 is way too high for a car payment. You can get a great used compact for $10k. With decent credit that’ll run you $150/month. $100 is way too high for home Internet. I pay $40/month for 100 mbps, which is more than enough for five decides to stream simultaneously. $1400 i…

$100 is not too much for internet, I pay a bit more than that and it is the only internet available at all outside of my cellphones poor 4g coverage.

I pay $100/month for internet, but that's basically the top tier offer (and I WFH every day). I could get a plan for $40.

If I were low income, I could get a plan for as little as $15 to $25/month.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#856

Post by engineer_22 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

Open the border.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#857

Post by lucian1900 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

randomopining wrote: post #849

lucian1900 wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has the US not invaded, coup-ed and threatened numerous countries? Is it not now occupying several? Does it not have bases encircling all countries opposed to its imperialism? I thought this was common knowledge. The IMF, World Bank and European Central Bank do indeed offer predatory loans with strict conditions (like privatisation, deregulation, austerity) and at usury rates. Countries have a choice between this and…

How is encouraging democracy directly equal to imperialism? The US doesn’t want autocrats who can subvert us geopolitically and kill their own people. Fact is that countries in our sphere are democratic and prosperous.

That is the official narrative, the western democracies versus us autocratic barbarians everywhere else. Even if such an absurdity were somehow true, surely at least sovereignty should count for something.

In reality, countries in your “sphere” are either allied exploiters or exploited (and not at all prosperous). Anyone that threatens profits is painted as evil, regardless of the truth. After so many sanctions, coups and wars based on what later turned out to be blatant lies, surely you could reserve some scepticism.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#858

Post by ncallaway » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #407

rbg246 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money. These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that. You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model. But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change thei…

A lot of people who support minimum wage increases don't think that way though. They _do_ think the local McDonald's is raking in cash and not sharing the profits. Conceptually, I agree with what you're saying (I also feel very strongly about off shore manufacturing for the same reasons) but, practically, when you increase the minimum wage, the poverty jobs will disappear and _eventually_ be replaced. The problem is…

> but, practically, when you increase the minimum wage, the poverty jobs will disappear

If we're talking about raising the minimum wage arbitrarily high, then this is true.

But this argument also gets made a lot when we're talking about a specific proposal (such as $15). For a specific proposal this argument is not always true.

It was raised a ton in Seattle when Seattle was considering a $15 minimum wage. Endlessly. The main argument was that it would devastate employment for the jobs it was supposed to improve.

Then the minimum wage increase passed and it didn't do that. Employment in those jobs actually went up slightly (probably not a casual increase, probably more coincidental). But it certainly didn't devastate the employment in minimum wage jobs.

So, the argument is one that feels compelling since it is true in the extremes. But it needs to be evaluated with the facts of each proposal.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#859

Post by conformist » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #851

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

The need for wage controls is more apparent in the tech industry. If a hypothetical company with 100 employees registers 10 billion profit and apart from CEO and the board employees make 5 figure salaries, then there is something horribly wrong going on. I think we need a regulation that beyond a certain threshold company should redistribute 30% of profits annually among the staff on top of their salaries. There shou…

Making sure that dividends are taxed like other types of income could make sense - not sure how this currently works in the US? Removing dividends all-together? That doesn't seem like a good idea, because why would anyone invest in a business, if there is no potential for future cash flows arising from it? Even companies that don't generally pay dividends have value, because they could. So removing dividends would also require another mechanism to incentivise investing in businesses in the first place?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#860

Post by derrekl » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

Not going to speak to the article but want to layout that in 1997 when I was a waiter at Chili’s I made $2.50 an hour base wage, but with tips nearly always cleared $24/h. In 1999 I was a waiter for an upscale steakhouse in the city of Chicago and on average made about $40/h. Several of the waiters there were career waiters and had families. Many career waiters worked very hard to get jobs at higher and higher end restaurants and could clear 100K on the year back in 1999.