Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#321

Post by madengr » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

fma wrote: post #243

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

Yep - which is the appeal Universal Basic Income as Andrew Yang proposes...automation is inevitable, have it work for the people rather than increasing profits.

Or stop producing as many people.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#322

Post by seoaeu » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

aliceryhl wrote: post #310

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

Couldn't you do without the car? I've heard that the US has bad public transport, but is it really that bad?

Doing that could easily add an hour (or in particularly bad cases, two hours!) each way to your commute. Some people do make that tradeoff, but it seems really unpleasant.

The big issue is that transit accessibility is priced into rent, so while parts of US cities might actually be reasonable to get around with public transportation, you'd never be able to afford to live there with a low income.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#323

Post by maxerickson » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

aliceryhl wrote: post #310

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

Couldn't you do without the car? I've heard that the US has bad public transport, but is it really that bad?

There's lots of places with OK service, if you measure by overall coverage it's pretty bad.

Like https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2016... is about a guy that caught the attention of the internet because he couldn't take public transit to his job.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#324

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

RGamma wrote: post #299

ITT: Americans being afraid of social market economy

[deleted]

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#325

Post by rbg246 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money.

These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that.

You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model.

But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change their business.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#326

Post by betwixthewires » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #164

gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 * 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

I don't know where you live, but you're the one that is out of touch. 2 tanks a week? 200 bucks a month for shit tier food? Ever heard of cooking? 1400 a month rent?

I've spent time in Houston, on minimum wage, and in the past decade. It was alright. I even had the money to go out drinking every weekend, by Rice university at that. Usually when you hear arguments like this and you get down to brass tacks, you start to hear the arguments that allude to the real culprit, things like "I should be able to have extra money for fun" which usually translates to "I blow my money on things I can't afford and then blame the world for being broke."

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#327

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:53 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #306

throwawaygh wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The data clearly shows the vast majority of the restaurant business be a low margin, high risk venture I think what I was suggesting was that perhaps restaurants as an industry have systematically under-estimated consumers' willingness to pay. You see this in software pricing discussions a lot, actually: small shops that leave a lot of money on the table by not charging enough. Is it really so crazy to imagine that…

Restaurant owners aren’t leaving money on the table because they’re charitable people. There’s so many restaurant openings and closings for so many decades that I think it’s a pretty good indicator of their price dynamics. Software is B2B many times and has efficiencies of scale that restaurants don’t.

People often open restaurants as a hobby project. They like the idea of running a restaurant, maybe because they like the idea of being sociable or cooking for other people.

But they literally have no idea how to run a profitable restaurant. Often they know next to nothing about business in general, and have no idea how to estimate costs/profits.

Plenty of other business types operate on a similar semi-amateur basis, including book shops, record stores, independent garages, hairdressers and beauty parlors, craft and art shops, realtors, and others.

Sometimes they get lucky, or they're started by people who have actual business talent and can deal with challenges creatively.

But often they don't, which is why they fail.

Many also pay very poorly. Both super-professional and super-unprofessional owners can nickel-and-dime their employees, but for different reasons.

Failure is bad because these kinds of small businesses often add life to a community. But there's little or no support or training for them. It wouldn't take much to help them avoid the more obvious mistakes, give them more stability, and turn them into more of a local and national resource.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#328

Post by rufus_foreman » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

Sebb767 wrote: post #266

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. She actually addressees this in the very last paragraph: > if a business can’t pay a living wage, should it be a business?

If a business can't pay a living wage, the workers will die off and the problem will be solved.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#329

Post by FFRefresh » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:55 PM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #292

FFRefresh wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a group of people an inanimate entity to you? Are there only certain types of groups of people that you think are an animate entity?

If you want to get really pedantic about it, a company is not a "group of people": a company is a particular legal structure for organising a profit-making enterprise. So yes, it is an inanimate entity. When we say things like "that Lions football team suffered a crushing defeat", we're engaging in metonymy -- referring to the suffering of the members of the team but speaking metaphorically about "the team".

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think whatever arbitrary legal structure there is around a group of people somehow makes the organization not human.

For example, I think it's perfectly normalized to say "that Detroit Lions team suffered a crushing defeat", even though the Detroit Lions are a profit-making enterprise.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#330

Post by ep103 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:55 PM UTC

ozim wrote: post #311

maybelsyrup wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Good! I've been hearing about "the business side of the problem" my entire life -- lectured sternly about it, in many cases. All while few of the Adults and Experts - people with Real Power, in other words - dare even mention some of the topics laid out in the link. > I'm just saying that both sides of the equation need to be examined, i.e…

Imagine scenario where you have $100k and you can open a small restaurant, create jobs, maybe not best jobs but still some people will be putting food on the table with your help, some students will pay for their collage. But you count the costs and it turns out you will break even in 50 years or if anything goes bad never, like, one bad hire will drown you. You look at Google, Apple, Facebook stocks ... there is alw…

https://academictimes.com/economic-news-reporting-suffers-fr...

No. News sources are focusing on business instead of labor's issues, because news statistically favors business interests, not labor's.

If your hypothetical business owner is unable to start a business without paying a reasonable wage, then that business should not exist. And your hypothetical business owner should invest in Apple, Facebook, or otherwise.

If this causes less business entrepreneurship, then so be it. A business that cannot pay employees is not a business that adds value to society, and nothing of value is lost. This is a fundamental tenet of capitalism, the same way we say that businesses that cannot sell their product also deserve to fail.