A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#851

Post by halflings » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

gredelston wrote: post #842

halflings wrote: post #697

On this group's homepage [1]: "We are BIPOC workers who fight against totalitarianism." I am not sure what this has to do with unionizing Google workers. Using obscure acronyms to arbitrarily focus on race and ethnicity (something frowned upon here in Europe at least) + the hyperbole of "fighting totalitarianism" doesn't give me great confidence that this is representing workers, as much as it is pushing the ideology…

To be clear, the "BIPOC workers" and "fight against totalitarianism" are elements of picklists, with other options like "We are technologists who want pay equity". The overall message of the picklist is that the union is an inclusive group which stands together for a variety of reasons. And, the union doesn't claim to speak for all workers. It only claims to speak for its members, and to fight to protect all workers.

Thanks, I tried to clarify this in my original comment, but it can no longer be edited.

I'm not sure that changes much. To me, "BIPOC" is anything but inclusive. It's an acronym that apparently was used for about a month, by people of a very specific political ideology, and seems to be criticized by the very people this term is supposed to represent. [1]

And what does totalitarianism have to do with anything? I am all for putting a bit more power in employees' hands (esp. for issues where HR will throw an employee under the bus), but can we please keep the divisive political rhetoric out of it? Not shoehorn "BIPOC" and politically-charged language everywhere?

I am a "BIPOC", but I feel this rhetoric will be more effective with (mostly white) progressives/liberals, not the people it purports to represent.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/article/what-is-bipoc.html

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#852

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #751

jollofricepeas wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. The funny thing about unions is that the HN community believes that every other organization and industry can be disrupted...EXCEPT unions. It’s hilarious. The comments are usually all anecdotal with some story about an uncle or father who was “screwed over” by his union back in the 80s or 90s. We are capable of creating a new type of union and making collective bargaining better than what previous gener…

The HN community doesn't "believe" that—people have different opinions, as on many topics. As evidence you don't need to look any further than the massively upvoted subthread that you replied to. It's at the top of this page because a large slice of the community obviously supports this view. That many others don't agree is evidence that the community is divided, not that it's lined up against you; it's basically a v…

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#853

Post by egypturnash » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

dagmx wrote: post #580

egypturnash wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends who are in the animation industry (which has been heavily unionized since the 50s) and they tell me the Union is constantly fighting with the studios over the studios trying to get more work out of them for less money. I have friends in the visual effects industry (which has never been unionized) and their lives are full of stuff like effects houses that did work on award-winning films with huge budget…

Minor nitpick...the animation industry is only really unionized in LA. Outside of LA, the animation union dwindles dramatically and is close to non existent. For example, Titmouse was the first studio in Canada to unionize and that was just in mid 2020. The Bay area studios like Pixar aren't unionized either, even though their sister studio WDAS in LA is unionized.

Ooh, good point. I've heard some of the Asian animation industry is super bad about burning people out in just a few years.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#854

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #395

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

unintended consequences 1. Fat cats. What are the due fees? %1 now?, later then? %5 of gross annually? 200 people * 300k year * %5 of salary = 3 million. They will use this on fancy dinners with Google execs? Or spend it in "wrongful terminations" law suites with google for years? What happens when 50x more join. 2. Who runs it? Will it be a 10 year long president? What is her union salary? A non-google person? Will…

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#855

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #167

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

For some reason, the most vocal aspect of tech workers tends to be this libertarianish pure merit based persona that is insulted by any type of collective bargaining. I think that attitude rules the day because tech related industries are in an extended growth period, and the more “legacy” aspects of the industry use offshoring and guest workers to maintain total control. (The armies of programmers churning out Java…

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#856

Post by MisterBastahrd » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

jonas21 wrote: post #820

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Are you really holding up the film industry as a model that tech should emulate? Because the median annual wage for SAG-AFTRA members is about $7500 [1]. And that doesn't even include members who failed to find any work during the year. 85% of members don't make enough to get health benefits through the union, which kick in if you make over $18K/year [2]. These are poverty-level wages. [1] https://www.smdp.com/notewo…

Are you really pretending that actors have the same sort of work schedules as developers?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#857

Post by jskell725 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

DonnyV wrote: post #797

jskell725 wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we chose to work for them instead of starting our own shops; and so to exchange complete ownership of our labor for a (often very nice) steady compensation. Note that this also applies to managers; up to and including the CEO. They might get paid more in Stock and less in cash; but they're usually not the Owners in and meaningful sense. I personally love the idea of workers cooperatives and do try to patroniz…

I think they scale up fine. Mondragon Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation#:~:text=... .

Interesting and thank you! Perhaps this is a model which can be expanded in the future indeed... It's sort of a logical extension of startups which pay ISOs. With the obvious difference that the employee equity would be immediately realized; and come with corresponding votes.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#858

Post by vncecartersknee » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:18 PM UTC

rdgthree wrote: post #94

It seems incredibly significant that only 230 people are officially involved with these plans to unionize. As of 2019, Google had nearly 120,000 employees.[0] That seems quite small, relatively speaking. Legally (I think, just learning about this now), to form a union, a majority of workers must show their willingness to form a union. Alternatively, to choose an existing union to join, an election with 30% of the wor…

Smacks of controlled opposition tbh.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#859

Post by dogprez » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

raiyu wrote: post #549

Any system that aggregates power can be used towards detrimental efforts. Unions aggregate power and as such are heavily dependent on their leadership. When there was no employment law in the US and you had children working, obviously change was necessary and so unions were able to provide worker protections that an individual couldn't establish for themselves since they had no power against the corporation. If you l…

> The other challenge with unions, is that while one can succeed it leaves everyone else that is outside of the union at other companies completely unprotected.

The 5 day 40 hour workweek was championed by the trade unions but everyone got the advantage of that eventually.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#860

Post by amaccuish » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

antisoeu wrote: post #807

kanbara wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um... in germany works councils don't get rid of young people because they want to protect their senior ranks. First: it's really hard to get fired in germany, almost impossible. Second: they help formulate who gets laid off when, when there are layoffs, and prioritise people who can and will find a job more easily. So young people and people without families. This is because older people are more vulnerable to discr…

Don't you notice that you contradict yourself? You claim they don't decide who gets fired, and in the next paragraph you explain that they will get younger people fired, because they are presumed to have an easier time finding new jobs. "They" help formulate - I don't think the young people who get fired belong to the "they" very much. Otherwise, again, there would be no need for unions. The young people would just v…

And yet you've just generalised without looking deeper. "They fire all the young people" is a hot take, until you realise that young people will far more easily find a new job.