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Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

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Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#851

Post by cafard »

hpkuarg wrote: post #832
josephmosby wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 suggestion: Washington, DC. Museums (the Smithsonian museums), bars, restaurants (one of the Michelin cities), proximity to nature (there's a national park that cuts through the middle of the city, there's the National Arboretum, and you're about an hour drive from numerous state parks in Virginia and Maryland) #2 suggestion: Chicago, IL. Museums (check), bars (check), restaurants (also a Michelin city), nature (L…

> a national park that cuts through the middle of the city Come now, you aren't suggesting that the National Mall counts as "proximity to nature" ;-) I've spent some time in all three cities and live in one; none of them really offer the same ease of access to nature as does San Francisco, if you count nature as necessarily including some level of remoteness from the built-up environment.

I take it that he is referring to Rock Creek Park. And the C&O Canal Towpath doesn't cut through the middle of the city, but it is a fine place to go

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#852

Post by ghaff »

fragmede wrote: post #848
gfxgirl wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I came from maybe Flagstaff Arizona I'd think SF has "museums, bars, restaurants, proximity to nature" but having lived in plenty of other places with more museums, bars, restaurants and proximity to nature SF was a let down.

San Francisco is a very small city, but it is a city nonetheless which puts it on the list of places in the US where you can live (and I mean truly live ) without a car, even before the age of Uber/Lyft. (Unsurprisingly, the other places on that list are also cities.) Due to tech money and location, it occupies a weird place in the various lists of world's cities. It is just tiny a small city compared to other cities…

>where you can live (and I mean truly live) without a car

Maybe. I do know a couple who live in SF who don't own a car but they sure use a lot of Ubers and do rentals.

More generally, and I'm probably just showing personal bias, but for me living in SF without the ability to just hop in a car and go to mountains etc. seems like it would be cutting myself off from much of what makes SF more interesting than comparably-sized cities.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#853

Post by codyb »

Camillo wrote: post #718
CardenB wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a single guy? New York. DC.

New York for sure before the pandemic, but now?

Manhattan renter here. NYC's slowly coming back alive. Hoping the commercial rents on storefronts go down a bit and we see some more novel shops open and some of the chain banks and fast food joints disappear.

Also, you can... pretty much, walk around town with a "to go" beer now which is really nice. It reminds me of Europe and taking a nice long walk, and then grabbing a bevvy is a nice change of pace from sitting at a bar in the before times.

A lot of stuff is still really empty, bike traffic is booming, the subways are surprisingly enjoyable to ride on due to the decreased numbers, and the beach is fantastic.

I don't have too many worries about the recovery here. Especially since the populace seems pretty good about masks. Hoping my rent drops a bit though!

Other things that I hope remain post COVID are some of the streets being closed off to traffic with lots of tables in the roads.

At the community board meetings they're already discussing whether or not they'll take a lot of the office space around me and end up converting it to residential. I think it's a bit premature for that but the city seems ready to adapt and thrive.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#854

Post by zeveb »

radicaldreamer wrote: post #530
koolba wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The misconception is that people are leaving because the housing is too expensive and its not worth it anymore. Almost everybody I know that moved out had no problem affording housing (high earners / home owners / rent controlled). People are leaving because quality of life has fallen dramatically and the only thing keeping people in SF was their offices. Whether something is too expensive is not just a function of…

Only in the short to medium term... the characteristics which make SF an attractive place to live (just like NYC) are resilient and sticky. If you consider a post-covid world 5 years from now, do you think that SF with it's museums, bars, restaurants, and proximity to nature will be an unattractive place to live? Do you think that remote-first/remote-only companies where the majority of employees are outside of the b…

> If you consider a post-covid world 5 years from now, do you think that SF with its museums, bars, restaurants, and proximity to nature will be an unattractive place to live?

As long as the city & county and state governments are as bad as they are, yes. San Francisco was easily the most disgusting American city I have ever been to. It somehow has managed to land in an anti-sweet spot of repressive laws aimed at the middle classes, while not enforcing any laws against the mentally ill who do things like defecate in public, urinate on the floors of even nice bars, accost one on the street and so forth.

San Francisco needs someone to do for it what Hercules did for the Augean stables.

The suburban area was much nicer, but still hellaciously expensive, way out of proportion to the quality of life. There's a reason why people are fleeing California in general, and San Francisco in particular.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#855

Post by robk »

clappski wrote: post #805
habosa wrote: post #778

I moved out of SF in March. Not because of the virus, I just had a long-planned move (to London) with interesting timing. Unlike many of my tech peers, I love San Francisco and the Bay Area. It's a beautiful city and surrounded in all directions by even more beautiful places. The food, music, and art scenes are all amazing. Oh and it happens to have near-unlimited job options for my career of choice. The only reason…

> all I could think in my first month in central London was "wow it's so cheap here". I think you're possibly the first and last person to have that thought ;)

London cost of living is really lower than SF nowadays. It's pretty shocking but has been this way a while. Just avg eng salaries are lower but US expats can command a premium and live very well.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#857

Post by room500 »

01100011 wrote: post #694
welder wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you lose competing against the best, you're still better off than the ones not in the competition.

Better off in what sense? I think it depends on one's life goals and value system. I've seen people live amazingly fulfilling lives in flyover country while making average incomes, far better than an average income earner stuck in a big city.

Everyone has their own set of values - I don't judge your decisions at all in this case.

However, to give some perspective, I grew up in a rural/suburban "flyover" town. There are parts of my childhood that I would love my own children to have - running outdoors, opportunities to try things without committing to the (sure, I'll sign up for the baseball team and see what happens), etc

But what I realize that I missed was the knowledge of how big the world was. I thought going to the local state college was "making it." I didn't understand how the world worked or what was possible. I missed out on opportunities because I didn't realize that I should be looking for them.

A great book on the subject is Hillbilly Elegy. It tracks closely with my own experiences (though I can say that I am fortunate to not have some of the challenges that the author faced).

Based on my experiences, I have chosen to expose my children to the wide world of opportunities out there. Yes, I am terrified of the stress and anxiety that might accompany that, but I am also confident that it is what would set them up to be successful in this global society

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#858

Post by ballenf »

barrkel wrote: post #831
wwweston wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My hope is that this will bring down commercial real estate prices down significantly I'm going to predict that this will not happen. More specifically, that it will be unusual in general for rents or prices anywhere to drop any more than 10%. There's something odd going on and my best guess is that there are (a) accounting/tax practices that provide incentives for vacancy with certain nominal values and (b) real e…

The value of land rented is mostly based on the rent that can be charged. Loans which use the land as collateral need the value to stay high in order to roll over (refinance) the loan. It's conceivably better for major real-estate holders to rent the land out at their preferred rate one or two months in a year, and leave it unoccupied otherwise, than accept reduced rates. The former gives a fig leaf for rental value,…

That makes sense, but I'm confused how you make loan payments without tenants paying rent. Not to mention property taxes, maintenance, utilities and other overhead.

Kind of feels like the cliché "make it up in volume" when you're losing money on each transaction.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#859

Post by hammock »

VRay wrote: post #706
redisman wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bay Area nature is unparalleled Puget Sound and Denver metros might disagree

This is ridiculous. Basically every city in the USA is within a couple hours' drive of "amazing nature" The only reason I live in the Bay Area is because my net worth goes up WAY more here per year than it does elsewhere.. If that changes, I'm out

Chicago...(besides Lake michigan)

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#860

Post by hpkuarg »

evanb wrote: post #835
josephmosby wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 suggestion: Washington, DC. Museums (the Smithsonian museums), bars, restaurants (one of the Michelin cities), proximity to nature (there's a national park that cuts through the middle of the city, there's the National Arboretum, and you're about an hour drive from numerous state parks in Virginia and Maryland) #2 suggestion: Chicago, IL. Museums (check), bars (check), restaurants (also a Michelin city), nature (L…

Rock Creek Park is a National Park. https://www.nps.gov/rocr/index.htm

Likely only by virtue of it sitting on Federal land (the District of Columbia). That is, if by the National Park designation you mean to imply a level of grandeur and majesty that the likes of Zion or Glacier National Parks bring.

To be fair, I've never been to Rock Creek Park, but photos of it make it look like any number of state- and municipal-level parks near me. :-)

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