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Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#851

Post by babypuncher »

skykooler wrote: post #787
api wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spoke with a former Apple dev on this topic once. He says that you can opt out of code signing and the App Store on Mac because that's a professional OS, but for iOS the security rationale for not allowing that is that it's geared for less tech-savvy users. Paraphrasing: "If there is a way to opt out, malicious apps and sites will con users into doing it to get malware on the phone." I can't totally disagree. To ha…

So where's the "professional" phone OS? It seems to me that if you want to stay in the Apple ecosystem you're stuck with iOS whether you know what you're doing or not.

Apple still provides a means for "professionals" to sign and run their own code on iOS devices, it just requires jumping through a few hoops. Pay a one-time $100 fee and you don't have to deal with re-signing your app every seven days. This is enough of a barrier to entry that I think it solves the "dancing bunnies" problem without making it impossible to run what I want. I do fully understand why some people think that this is still too extreme.

My two real beefs with this arrangement are the requirement of a Mac, and the potential use of the App Store curation to block apps for political reasons, as is happening with HKmap.live.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#852

Post by andromeduck »

Tim purportedly sent this out today, found it on reddit:

You have likely seen the news that we made the decision to remove an app from the App Store entitled HKmap.live. These decisions are never easy, and it is harder still to discuss these topics during moments of furious public debate. It's out of my great respect for the work you do every day that I want to share the way we went about making this decision. It is no secret that technology can be used for good or for ill. This case is no different. The app in question allowed for the crowdsourced reporting and mapping of police checkpoints, protest hotspots, and other information. On its own, this information is benign. However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that the app was being used maliciously to target individual officers for violence and to victimize individuals and property where no police are present. This use put the app in violation of Hong Kong law. Similarly, widespread abuse clearly violates our App Store guidelines barring personal harm. We built the App Store to be a safe and trusted place for every user. It's a responsibility that we take very seriously, and it's one that we aim to preserve. National and international debates will outlive us all, and, while important, they do not govern the facts. In this case, we thoroughly reviewed them, and we believe this decision best protects our users.

https://imgur.com/2pkIFNu

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#853

Post by mmastrac »

joshmn wrote: post #772
pgcj_poster wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. This is not possible for many (and I suspect the majority of) android phones.

> This is not possible for many (and I suspect the majority of) android phones. But it is. You can install APKs from anyone on any phone. It's a feature of the OS. > I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. I've never had an Android phone I couldn't unlock and flash. From the original Evo to Pixel 2. I have an iPhone as of two months ago. I just wanted to try som…

> From the original Evo to Pixel 2.

We spent a good amount of time over a year keeping the Evo unlocked whenever HTC would try to patch things. I'd like to think that helped set the tone for bootloader unlockability going forward.

But to be honest, I've been in the Nexus and Pixel ecosystem since then so I haven't really seen how things have shaped up

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#854

Post by derefr »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #805
davrosthedalek wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's the same thing. Apple has at least three options: - Have a store with, say, quality control, and the option to side-load - Have a store with "quality control" (and, as I see it, some rather large levers to fight competition), no option to side-load, but don't bow to state actors - same, but bow to state actors. I wish it's the first, I thought it's the second, but we now see it's the third. I think…

But see, by saying "don't bow to state actors", you're making a moral judgement about when it is and is not okay to bow to pressure. Was it okay when Apple got rid of Alex Jones's app? He was spreading misinformation about vaccines, that's pretty darn dangerous. I guess you could argue that wasn't due to a "state actor", but is anti-Hong-Kong pressure from Chinese citizens all that different? And here's the thing—I d…

> I guess you could argue that wasn't due to a "state actor", but is anti-Hong-Kong pressure from Chinese citizens all that different?

The difference is between taking something down because you agree with the rationale the entity-that-wants-something-taken-down gives you, such that you'd do it even without that entity in existence as long as you knew the information they told you; vs. being intimidated by that entity into doing so, such that without the entity, you'd have never done anything.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#855

Post by missosoup »

thewholeview wrote: post #528
missosoup wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a good-faith question for you. Your account is 6 days old. Your account's activity is 100% directed towards China-related threads and your comments take on a CCP angle. I'd like to know what brought you to HN and what you hope to accomplish here. Where do you live? Where did you study? What are your political leanings? I would love to open a line of dialogue.

Thanks for asking. I've answered this in another thread, I'll copy paste the reply over with minor edits: Yes, I can admit that I've created an alternate account. Because the current American political atmosphere is instilling fear for my ability to freely express the alternative that's other than the popular opinion. I'm selfish and wish to not cause damage to my credential on my main account, and leave that for non…

Yeah, that's fine. Anonymity is important precisely because it allows one to discuss sensitive topics openly.

But you are using anonymity to advocate for a regime where anonymity has been systemically removed and where this conversation could never take place on a public forum. That's a bit of dissonance no?

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#856

Post by leereeves »

mikeg8 wrote: post #577
leereeves wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you against requiring seat belts and emissions controls in cars? Requiring homes to be built to code? Requiring utilities to provide water/power/gas to products made by other companies? Society regularly dictates how producers design their products. Technologists aren’t used to that because lawmakers have been slow to catch up, and many were intentionally hands off to foster the growth of the Internet, but the Wi…

Society regularly dictates how producers design their products, when it effects the immediate physical safety and well-being of their citizens. I think equating the Apple/HK issue to your other examples is a far stretch.

From what I've seen of the behavior of police in HK, I think knowing where the police are might well affect the immediate physical safety and well-being of HK citizens.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#857

Post by yourbandsucks »

birdyrooster wrote: post #850
yourbandsucks wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their only mention of China used the word 'repugnant', so I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.

Because they were touting the strength of staying on message as if it actually was a beneficial thing (which it isn't). It leads to very dangerous failures in society when people cannot talk about unpopular problems. It leads to them fumbling and missing obvious truths.

It has upsides and downsides.

You realize that you're criticizing someone right now for having a take on relative weaknesses of the US system? Going so far as to immediately accuse them of loyalty to another country?

Not to snark too hard, but 'physician, heal thyself' comes to mind.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#858

Post by missosoup »

UIZealot wrote: post #587
missosoup wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recognised the author's username before even reading the body of the comment. HN is inundated with recently created or recently reactivated accounts posting CCP propaganda. These accounts don't necessarily belong to bots or shills, but they are nonetheless part of a state orchestrated social media influence campaign. Reddit has addressed this with mass purges and browser extensions that allow shared tagging of user…

I remember you from our earlier discussions as well. Even though we disagreed, I always thought you sounded intelligent and thoughtful. But somehow you felt the need to resort to naming calling and baseless speculations here. The facts are really not on your side, are they?

To be really clear I am not accusing you or the other accounts of being shills or bots. Statistically, you were born in China and were sent to study overseas.

The issue is that the aggregate activity of accounts like yours on overseas forums like reddit/HN is effectively a nationalistic propaganda campaign even though you probably don't realise it.

The reverse would be if thousands of random Redditors who are enraged about the HK protests showed up on your regular WeChat groups and started repeating identical pro-west propaganda talking points everywhere. Except the reverse can't happen because all the main communication mediums in China are locked out to foreigners.

That is the unfair disbalance. That is the state orchestrated influence campaign. The CCP doesn't need bots or shill armies. They have millions of nationalistic individuals overseas and use them to the same effect.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#859

Post by travisp »

bduerst wrote: post #813
travisp wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they still don't have access to the encryption keys, as reported after those articles you post: "Encryption for us is the same in every country in the world...We worked with a Chinese company to provide iCloud, but the keys [...] are ours...I wouldn't get caught up in 'where's the location of it,' I mean we have servers located in many different countries in the world. They're not easier to get data from being in…

Nothing in that quote backs up your statement. Tim Cook is describing how encryption works - he is not saying that the Chinese government doesn't have access to the data at rest with the iCloud encryption keys. Amnesty International [1] sums it up: >“By handing over its China iCloud service to a local company without sufficient safeguards, the Chinese authorities now have potentially unfettered access to all Apple’s…

I agree there are reasons to be concerned overall, but Tim Cook is very clearly stating in this interview, which happened after the nationalization, that 1) China doesn’t have access to the encryption keys themselves and 2) for much of the data (like messages) not even Apple has the keys, 3) China is not able to access the data any more easily than any other country.

If you are targeted by the CCP, then yes, they can make a “legal” request for the data of an individual that Apple is able the decrypt (which isn’t all of it), but they aren’t able to apply mass surveillance to the iCloud data.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#860

Post by neop1x »

That is a good reminder of the closeness of this ecosystem. Is it really your device when you can't install your app on it? Ditch it! Hopefully protesters have enough people with Androids... there are less and less reasons to use iPhone now that Androids are pretty mature. It's sad that iOS still doesn't even support royalty-free WEBM/VP9 because
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