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The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

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Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#841

Post by rootusrootus »

mosura wrote: post #666
ceejayoz wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern leftists are definitionally promoting expansion of government power… Care to name a specific example?

Obvious examples: health care, education, social benefits provision, public transit, arms control. All involve expansions of the state bureaucracy and decision making power. This is tangential to whether those things are good/bad in and of themselves. The reason Bookchin was interesting, and why he was isolated even from Sanders, was he accurately saw any hierarchy as oppressive, whether class, capitalistic, cooperat…

> Obvious examples: health care, education, social benefits provision, public transit, arms control. All involve expansions of the state bureaucracy and decision making power.

So what you have established is that the left and right both want to expand government power, but the left wants to use it to improve the general welfare while the right wants to use it to crush their fellow citizens. Thank you for the clarification.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#842

Post by rootusrootus »

krapp wrote: post #838
rootusrootus wrote: post #835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or it is a good tool used wrong This. ICE serves a necessary function. It is intentionally being wielded with malice. The target is not immigrants, they are just the face of the brawl, the real target is democratic voters. > can people vote and make ICE stronger / weaker depending on their choice This question is easy to answer. The citizens could easily vote in a new president in 2028 who defunded ICE altogether.…

>The citizens could easily vote in a new president in 2028 who defunded ICE altogether. You think that after two more years of this regime that any such candidate would be allowed anywhere near whatever pretense of an electoral system still exists? I need you to understand that the United States is already no longer a democratic republic in anything but name. The system of government you're assuming will fix the mess…

That rhetoric is popular online, but I have not heard any convincing argument for how it plays out in practice.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#843

Post by rootusrootus »

biophysboy wrote: post #53
wutwutwat wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"humiliating" folks might not be the proportional response when innocent people are dying

How else are we supposed to deter tech people from working for Palantir? What is a good polite method?

I am pretty sure the implication was not a polite method. GP is suggesting extrajudicial violence

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#844

Post by rootusrootus »

hereme888 wrote: post #384

There's a clear difference in the premises behind the thinking of the "right" vs. the "left". One side sees "evil officers acting too aggressively towards fellow humans", and the other side sees "patriotic police catching criminal aliens, and leftists attacking the police". Those are the two ways of thinking I've noticed.

To the eventual detriment of the latter, I expect. There are plenty of people currently on the "evil officers" side who would be much more willing to support the mass deportation effort if the ICE officers were calm, unmasked, not using violent SWAT tactics just to apprehend an undocumented immigrant. This intentional violence turns away a lot of people who'd otherwise be sympathetic to the goals.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#845

Post by snark_attack »

newfriend wrote: post #814
deeg wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no comment about illegally knocking down doors? No comment about stopping naturalization ceremonies? I'll go back to this: if we wanted to reduce crime, we'd go after citizens first.

Simply incorrect. That study is yet another that fails to account for the fact that immigration status is not known immediately upon arrest. > Studies purporting to show low illegal immigrant crime rates in Texas fail to account for the fact that illegal immigrants are not always identified immediately upon arrest. In many cases, illegal immigrants are identified only after they are imprisoned. Given sufficient time…

The Cato author rebutted that article, and he and CIS traded rebuttals until this post, where the Cato author backs his point up with copious FOIA data. There seems to have been no further follow-up, so this could be the last word on that particular exchange:

https://www.cato.org/blog/center-immigration-studies-still-w...

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#847

Post by foldr »

RickJWagner wrote: post #836
foldr wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re arrested and charged with appropriate offenses, e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyg3j2kvzdo.amp Renee Nicole wasn’t driving a car at anyone, but regardless, it is stupid to shoot someone who’s driving a car at you as it won’t stop the car. What you need to do in that situation is get out of the way.

Here are several English cops run down with cars. https://www.gmp.police.uk/news/greater-manchester/news/news/... https://www.the-independent.com/news/uk/crime/simranjit-kajl... https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-01-28/teen-charged-aft... Your comments on these?

Additional examples of people assaulting British police officers using cars and not being shot.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#848

Post by luxuryballs »

plorg wrote: post #333
luxuryballs wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t it be even more fair to say that the people who allowed or even encouraged illegal immigration have blood on their hands because they know what they were doing and how the government would have to respond under the law? If we are going to use the line of reasoning you suggest then this should easily be on the table also.

This rests on the assumption that the government has to respond with violence.

the government uses force for everything it does, it doesn’t need to resort to violence if you comply, (and yes it feels gross to type that) I hate to appear to defend something I hate but it’s because I understand the nature of it not because I approve of it: the point still remains that the people who facilitated the illegal entry knew without a doubt that this was going to happen afterwards, however far you want to extrapolate that onto their motives I don’t intend to speculate on here

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#849

Post by willmarch »

alex43578 wrote: post #815
biophysboy wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the gov using violence to break the law (e.g. detaining citizens who have committed no crimes under the pretense of immigration enforcement) is not silly.

On the third hand, when those people getting detained are reasonably suspected of violating 18 USC 111, it’s perfectly fine.

If officers actually have reasonable suspicion that a specific person violated 18 U.S.C. §111 (assaulting/resisting/impeding federal officers), then a brief Terry-style stop to investigate can be lawful.

But you’re smuggling a lot into “reasonably suspected,” and it doesn’t answer the concern being raised:

Suspicion has to be particularized. “Was in the area,” “was protesting,” “was filming,” “looked like they might interfere,” or “was near someone who did something” isn’t reasonable suspicion of §111 for that individual. The Fourth Amendment requires specific, articulable facts tied to the person detained.

Stop vs. arrest still matters. Even if there’s RS, that supports a brief detention. If you’re talking handcuffs/transport/prolonged detention, you’re usually in probable cause territory.

So yes, §111 can justify enforcement. But it can’t be a magic incantation that turns broad crowd-control or “immigration enforcement” pretext into constitutional detentions.

If you think these detentions are “perfectly fine,” what specific facts are officers using, in practice, to establish §111 reasonable suspicion for the particular people being detained?

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#850

Post by lokar »

rootusrootus wrote: post #841
mosura wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obvious examples: health care, education, social benefits provision, public transit, arms control. All involve expansions of the state bureaucracy and decision making power. This is tangential to whether those things are good/bad in and of themselves. The reason Bookchin was interesting, and why he was isolated even from Sanders, was he accurately saw any hierarchy as oppressive, whether class, capitalistic, cooperat…

> Obvious examples: health care, education, social benefits provision, public transit, arms control. All involve expansions of the state bureaucracy and decision making power. So what you have established is that the left and right both want to expand government power, but the left wants to use it to improve the general welfare while the right wants to use it to crush their fellow citizens. Thank you for the clarific…

I generally lean left, and favor a large welfare state, reasonable regulation, etc. and I find your statement unfair.

People can reasonably disagree on these things.

In particular, the role of the federal government (vs the states) is important. Many of the benefit programs have no real need to be national, other than the ability of the federal government to borrow an unlimited amount of money. And many regulations are only federal because that was seen as easier and faster than gaining support in each state for them. Forcing a nation wide policy on an issue that could easily be dealt with by each state because you know you can't get the support is not very democratic.

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