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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#841

Post by linuxhansl »

Don't get me started.

- 9/11 was a one-time thing, it only worked because the passengers would assume that as long as they cooperate they would get out alive. Without that "cooperation" 9/11 would have not happened (remember the 4th plane that was brought down because the passengers learned what happened)

- Liquids. There was the potential that someone could mix together some liquids to make an explosive. It never actually happened, and the possibility was solidly debunked later. Yet, our lotion is still taken from us... And dumped right in the garbage near the most populous location in an airport.

- Shoes. One failed attempt. One. Years, later we still need to take our shoes off.

It's a security theater. Some of it obviously necessary, some of it just to make us feel safe.

Meanwhile way more people die on their drive to the airport than from any flight related incidents.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#842

Post by t-writescode »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #799
Y_Y wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. That's the whole thing. I think the most literal interpretation is that people have a right to bear arms, and you cant infringe that, by telling them they can't bear any arms. Obviously reasonable people will differ here, but I don't think it's fair to say that it unambigu…

At the time of writing, "Arms" was muskets. So you've already stated that it isn't reasonable to allow the other "arms". So why is anything more than a single shot barrel-loaded rifle allowed? Of course the reason is that there is a massive industry in making guns and a rabid source of people that can be scared into buying their wares. The reason the laws are the way they are is because of the economics of the lobby…

The guns that Lewis and Clark used on their expedition were decidedly quite fast firing. Yes, it was short after the 2nd Amendment and certainly in the founders' sites of possible.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#843

Post by jedberg »

bregma wrote: post #833
tcoff91 wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't have to give your fingerprints when you got a driver's license?

Where on earth would people accept such an encroachment on their privacy and right to unreasonable search and seizure just to obtain proof they have passed an examination? Soviet Russia? The DDR? Orwell's Oceania?

It isn't just proof you passed an exam -- it's also your ID card. The fingerprints are part of your government ID. Here in California you have to give a thumbprint or fingerprint to get both a license and a state issued ID card. The license serves as both proof of passing and as an ID so you don't need two cards.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#844

Post by poetaster »

Alupis wrote: post #718
GhostVII wrote: post #537

We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths, while still being OK with high speed limits that kill thousand…

> We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths The "preventing a single death is worth it" crowd has unfortu…

Exactly. I really gotta stoo typing now....

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#845

Post by wyldfire »

jedberg wrote: post #839
wyldfire wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside: when I talk about this program, I refer to it as "T-S-A precheck" because it's depicted as "TSA Pre ". I often hear it referred to as "TSA Pre" and it seems to be the case here too. I agree that the signage is unclear but I don't think it's intended to be called "TSA Pre".

I'm just lazy and call it TSA Pre. :)

Hmm. So it's a deliberate abbreviation? I'd always assumed that folks who referred to it that way didn't know the actual name because of the icon in place of 'check'.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#846

Post by js2 »

jandrese wrote: post #788
js2 wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints. False. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app... My spouse and I renewed our passports in the last 10 years, and got our kids passports for the first time. We did not provide fingerprints. I am a U.S. citizen. I went through an SF86 clearance in the early 2000s and don't recall even that requiring my fingerprints (but I co…

There are multiple clearances with different requirements, so it is possible that certain types require finger prints while others do not. However, AFAIK everybody who gets a clearance also has their fingerprints taken. The finger prints may not be available to regular LEO for dragnets to reduce the chance of leaking out the personal information of every cleared individual to foreign agents that have infiltrated law…

> However, AFAIK everybody who gets a clearance also has their fingerprints taken.

Ah, you’re right. I just found some correspondence related to the clearance and I did indeed provide fingerprints. The company I was working for at the time apparently was working with the NSA. I have almost no recollection of this. Maybe the MIB wiped my mind.

> finger prints may not be available to regular LEO for dragnets to reduce the chance of leaking out the personal information of every cleared individual to foreign agents that have infiltrated law enforcement.

I don’t know how far back this leak went, but I wouldn’t be surprised if my info was part of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#847

Post by teawrecks »

GhostVII wrote: post #537

We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths, while still being OK with high speed limits that kill thousand…

This is close. A comparison of causes of death vs how much time the news spends focusing on each one: https://ourworldindata.org/does-the-news-reflect-what-we-die...

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#848

Post by js2 »

tcoff91 wrote: post #724
js2 wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints. False. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app... My spouse and I renewed our passports in the last 10 years, and got our kids passports for the first time. We did not provide fingerprints. I am a U.S. citizen. I went through an SF86 clearance in the early 2000s and don't recall even that requiring my fingerprints (but I co…

You didn't have to give your fingerprints when you got a driver's license?

No, never. I’ve had licenses in FL, GA, NC and CA.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#849

Post by jedberg »

wyldfire wrote: post #845
jedberg wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just lazy and call it TSA Pre. :)

Hmm. So it's a deliberate abbreviation? I'd always assumed that folks who referred to it that way didn't know the actual name because of the icon in place of 'check'.

In my case it is. I'm sure a lot of people do it because of the check mark.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#850

Post by jedberg »

adolph wrote: post #815
jedberg wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government already has my fingerprints, because I had to give them to get a passport (edit: I've been informed this was only because I also did Global Entry) and also when I was in elementary school they fingerprinted everyone and also when I got my driver's license. Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints.

> when I was in elementary school they fingerprinted everyone Yes, they put it on your permanent record which any govt official can access using a simple zoom and enhance.

You joke but the permanent record is a real thing. My wife taught elementary school for many years, and at the end of the year she had to update all the permanent records and then pass them on to the next teacher. The records moved with you from school to school.

Some High Schools allow you to request your permanent record when you graduate, most just destroy them.

But yes, a government official can get a copy with a warrant just like any other record.

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