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US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

bbc.co.uk

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Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#841

Post by slibhb »

IvyMike wrote: post #837
slibhb wrote: post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is solid evidence that a vaccine will kill people, it should not be used. It's intolerable that people die taking a prophylactic. It's much, much worse to kill someone with a vaccine than to allow that person to perhaps die of a virus. Thankfully, in this case, sanity prevailed.

> If there is solid evidence that a vaccine will kill people, it should not be used. Don't all vaccines have some extremely low but nonzero probability of killing someone? > It's intolerable that people die taking a prophylactic. What do you think about airbags in cars?

If airbags kill someone who didn't crash their car, that model of car/airbag should be recalled. If a vaccine kills someone, people should stop taking that vaccine.

The point here is simple. It's worse for someone to die of a vaccine than for someone to die of the coronavirus. How much worse is up for debate, but it's a significant factor and napkin math has to take that into account or it's morally bankrupt.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#842

Post by ryankemper »

fastball wrote: post #743
Vinnl wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the thing that makes this more difficult is that some people already have practically no risk of suffering health consequences from COVID-19, and possibly (but also possibly not) do risk suffering health consequences from the vaccination.

This is not really true, as demonstrated by the PDF linked in the GC.

It is true; the PDF linked in the GC has to make a number of assumptions and is very obviously made from a point of bias (which does not invalidate its claims but warrants extra scrutiny).

Also it's comparing raw ICU admissions, but there are a number of really nasty adverse reactions that don't throw you in the ICU. The general "second shot syndrome" that something like half of people getting Pfizer/Moderna experience is a great example of that. Yeah it's not bad enough to send them to the ICU, but for many people COVID-19 would be literally asymptomatic or would be minimally symptomatic, whereas the second shot syndrome can be quite brutal.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#843

Post by chrisco255 »

newaccount7 wrote: post #798
tacitusarc wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 obvious deaths that we're aware of. The risk of the vaccines is in their novelty and morbidity. An abundance of caution is required in this instance. It would be very bad to discover that there's a vanishingly small chance of blood clots within the first 3 months but a significant chance when paired with other events over the following decade.

So I created a new account for this to avoid linking personal information... I had blood clots in my lungs last week a few days after getting the J&J vaccine. I'm an otherwise totally healthy man in my 30s, no preconditions. The hospital reported it to the vaccine reporting agency, which I assume is reviewing all this information. I'm not sure if they considered my case when making this decision. My clots were differ…

These are not vaccines. They are gene therapy marketed as vaccines. No one has any clue as to their long term side effects. The under 30 odds of death for Covid-19 are statistically zero percent. The rush to inject a brand new medication into the entire world pop without regards for individual risk profile is ridiculous, reckless, madness.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#844

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

MikeCapone wrote: post #749
tacitusarc wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 obvious deaths that we're aware of. The risk of the vaccines is in their novelty and morbidity. An abundance of caution is required in this instance. It would be very bad to discover that there's a vanishingly small chance of blood clots within the first 3 months but a significant chance when paired with other events over the following decade.

There's already been large scale phase 3 trials, and we've deal with vaccines for decades, they're not entirely novel and unknown each time.

> we've deal with vaccines for decades

I don’t think that’s accurate in this case. The type of vaccine that J&J released had up until months ago only ever been deployed in animals.

IIRC pigs had a problem with corona viruses that we solved”

The J&J is not a heap of dead virus like the common ones we have had forever. But a live harmless (we think) virus dolled up to look like Rona Corona.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#845

Post by krona »

titzer wrote: post #750
tacitusarc wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 obvious deaths that we're aware of. The risk of the vaccines is in their novelty and morbidity. An abundance of caution is required in this instance. It would be very bad to discover that there's a vanishingly small chance of blood clots within the first 3 months but a significant chance when paired with other events over the following decade.

I wish people applied this much caution to the virus. Who knows what cancers it causes 10 years down the road.

We have 17 years of SARS-CoV-1 patient data. We're even using their antibodies to treat COVID-19.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#846

Post by ppezaris »

slibhb wrote: post #828
js2 wrote: post #702

The risk of dying from a blood clot after receiving the J&J vaccine is six in 6,800,000 (6.8M). The world population is 7,900,000,000 (7.9B). If everyone on the planet got the J&J vaccine tomorrow, and if it is the cause of the clots, then 6,971 people would die from the vaccine. Yesterday, Covid19 killed 8,803 people (according to worldometers). We don't want anyone to die from vaccination, and we don't fully unders…

If there is solid evidence that a vaccine will kill people, it should not be used. It's intolerable that people die taking a prophylactic. It's much, much worse to kill someone with a vaccine than to allow that person to perhaps die of a virus. Thankfully, in this case, sanity prevailed.

If a hypothetical vaccine could save a million lives, but kills 10 people who get vaccinated, are you arguing that it shouldn't be administered?

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#847

Post by slibhb »

ppezaris wrote: post #846
slibhb wrote: post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is solid evidence that a vaccine will kill people, it should not be used. It's intolerable that people die taking a prophylactic. It's much, much worse to kill someone with a vaccine than to allow that person to perhaps die of a virus. Thankfully, in this case, sanity prevailed.

If a hypothetical vaccine could save a million lives, but kills 10 people who get vaccinated, are you arguing that it shouldn't be administered?

Yes. Let justice be done, though the world perish.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#848

Post by TrevorJ »

mujina93 wrote: post #813
TrevorJ wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The risk of dying from a blood clot after receiving the J&J vaccine is six in 6,800,000 (6.8M) that we know of . I suspect the lack of understanding about what is happening, and what other knock-on effects there might be is what is behind this. If a wing falls off of one airplane in a million, we still stop and try to figure out what happened because as far as we know, wings are not supposed to fall off any airplane…

But airplaines are engineered by humans, we know everything about how they are supposed to work until the last bit of physics. We don't have the same absolute understanding of mechanisms with vaccines. Therefore, I am not sure we can use this metaphore to suggest that it is the right choice in this terrible time to stop vaccinations, causing slowdowns to happen and scepticism to spread in the population that is bomba…

>stop vaccinations

We aren't stopping vaccinations. We are stopping this vaccine. For the moment. To gather more information. Which is precisely the kind of responsible behavior that we need, if we want people to be less skeptical of the vetting process for these vaccines.

>We don't have the same absolute understanding of mechanisms with vaccines.

Wouldn't this support more caution, not less?

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#849

Post by ryankemper »

fastball wrote: post #529
throwaway8581 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Young people shouldn't be getting the vaccine period. There is no reason to give every single person who will have children in the future an experimental vaccine for a virus they are at no serious risk from. The long tail risk on that is absolutely insane.

Not exactly sure what procreation has to do with anything. Also pretty sure risk of death outweighs literally any possible long-tail risk, so still seems sensible for the young to get the vax. Also don't think the long-tail risk of an mRNA vaccine can be worse then COVID's long-tail risk.

> Also don't think the long-tail risk of an mRNA vaccine can be worse then COVID's long-tail risk.

It absolutely could, and that should be self-evident.

> Also pretty sure risk of death outweighs literally any possible long-tail risk, so still seems sensible for the young to get the vax.

This is just not true. The risk of death in children from COVID-19 is so low you literally should not ever worry about it. If you want to compare numbers in an academic sense go ahead, but the fact that actual adults are wasting valuable cognitive and emotional energy worrying about their kids is a great tragedy.

The recorded COVID-19 deaths in children are, by the way, using the absurd definition of a COVID-19 case/death that most of the western world is using; a definition where having PCR-confirmed SARS-2 infection means that ANY death is classified as a COVID death. This is not how this is supposed to work; there is supposed to be a distinction between the virus and the disease, but we define the disease as merely having the virus! It's completely absurd. Indeed I'm writing an article about this concept (pathological vs physiological) right now

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#850

Post by titzer »

krona wrote: post #845
titzer wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people applied this much caution to the virus. Who knows what cancers it causes 10 years down the road.

We have 17 years of SARS-CoV-1 patient data. We're even using their antibodies to treat COVID-19.

8000 infections of SARS worldwide. It took how many hundreds of millions of HPV infections and cancers to detect the link?
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