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Billionaires Build

paulgraham.com

841–850 of 957 posts

Re: Billionaires Build

#841
post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Beatles did not exploit the labor of people pressing their records to become wealthy. Those same people pressed records for other artists who did not make it big, or even fell flat. Their labor input was exactly the same. The difference was in the songs the Beatles created. The Beatles created those songs, not the laborers who pressed the records. Or take Stevie Nicks, who google reports is worth $100m. Are the s…

So let the beatles pocket their billion, and we'll collect most it back at the end of the tax year. How's that?

Thievery.

Re: Billionaires Build

#842
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He starts his entire essay with a faulty premise, that in order to be a billionaire you have to be exploitative, and then goes on to argue why Y Combinator doesn't look for exploitative people so therefore this must not be true. Look, not even 'prole defenders' agree with this. You don't have to be exploitative to be a billionaire, it's simply a byproduct. There are only several thousand billionaires on earth and you…

>why Y Combinator doesn't look for exploitative people so therefore this must not be true. I have a dim recollection of an article many years ago that Y Combinator asked applicants a time when they gamed the system and the answer to that was on of the most correlated to success. Like saying you knew some technology that you didn't on a resume or selling some product that you hadn't built yet. They framed it as a posi…

I remember that(I applied twice. Won’t likely do it again because YC isn’t a good fit for me) and I wrote something to fill the blank..while thinking why on earth would I put that in writing here for the off chance that I might be get into an accelerator program.

I don’t expect anyone to answer that truthfully, but the ability to come up with a convincing and impressive response would score major points for creativity.

Re: Billionaires Build

#843
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are turning a moral judgement ("exploiting") to a more mechanical expression ("using leverage"). For critics of billionaires, the moral judgement is the whole point. Whether the "billionaire problem" belongs in the moral realm or in the dispassionate realm of math or economics is an ideological choice.

I'm intentionally trying to separate the moral and the mechanical for the purpose of understanding--both understanding the structure of the way the world works and how we can make it better as well as understanding the arguments of those for whom it's ideological. (See also the sibling comment to your by pdonis.)

I see what you mean here, but I think the shift in mode of analysis from moral to scientific blunts the force of the critique.

Re: Billionaires Build

#844
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less "your product is exploitative" and "you underpay (exploit) your workers for their labor." Bill Gates didn't write Windows 95. Steve Ballmer didn't write Microsoft Office. But they owned stock in a company that employed people that did (and all the various other labor that goes into building software products). Why did they make so much more money from it than the people who were more directly involved? This…

Didn’t Microsoft create hundreds of millionaires out of it’s initial employees? I mean, the people building the next generation of Microsoft products aren’t going to have trouble entering the upper income brackets of American society.

I would say a couple things here:

- Your argument could be rephrased as "profit-sharing isn't necessary as long as you pay people enough." This may work at mega-successful businesses like Microsoft, but doesn't work so well at something like a restaurant chain (or Amazon), where income inequality is far more pronounced. And those cases are far more common.

- Concentrations of wealth and capital have a destabilizing effect on society. It leads to political corruption. Further, even if we have a handful of companies where income inequality is relatively low, that's not the case for most Americans, even at those same companies. In other words, sure software engineers are doing fine, but most people aren't, including many people working for the same companies as those software engineers.

Re: Billionaires Build

#845
post #534
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What examples can you remember?

I think this was the thread I remember reading at the time where people came up with examples that don't have to be deceptive. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1197674 There was also a quote from someone in yc saying that the question wasn't really that important (probably why it got removed).

That’s an interesting thread ..altho not enough comments to make it super interesting..

I guess ‘hacks’ are what we call as ‘loopholes’ in tax audits. This is how I understand hacking. Every system has its strength/weaknesses and boundaries. As long as we can rearrange the system from within the boundaries by exploiting the available strengths/weaknesses to create an entirely different model/system/agenda qualifies as a ‘hack’.

Re: Billionaires Build

#846
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say this is a straw man. Every billionaire being exploitative/criminal is a real political position among the American Left, see e.g. this tweet [0] by Robert Reich. He was secretary of labor in the Clinton administration, so not some extremist weirdo. [0] https://twitter.com/rbreich/status/1193526297647108097

When leftists say "exploit," it's because they regard paying workers less than the marginal value they produce with labor exploitative. (Cf. boss makes a dollar, I make a dime.) They claim that it's unfair that that product of labor goes to the company's owners — hence, to fix this, leftists want to "seize" or "democratize" the means of production. (Sitenote: this a core tenet of capitalism: value going to owners.) O…

Well said, thanks for this clear explanation.

Re: Billionaires Build

#847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less "your product is exploitative" and "you underpay (exploit) your workers for their labor." Bill Gates didn't write Windows 95. Steve Ballmer didn't write Microsoft Office. But they owned stock in a company that employed people that did (and all the various other labor that goes into building software products). Why did they make so much more money from it than the people who were more directly involved? This…

Persons B, C, and D are being paid a rate proportionate to the available labor market for their product building skill set. There was nothing stopping persons B, C, or D from being person A and founding a company for that idea. If B, C, and D chose to strike for a higher wage then they could but there might be an E, F, and G which could take over for them at their previous rates. Anybody can make a giant sized, billi…

> Persons B, C, and D are being paid a rate proportionate to the available labor market for their product building skill set.

The labor market doesn't set prices based on value to society and scarcity. If it did, nurses and teachers would be millionaires (there's a shortage of both and they provide high value to society) and middle managers would make very little (there's a glut and they provide very little value to society). It assigns value based on prestige. Capitalist labor market folks would argue strongly otherwise, but the evidence is very clear.

The law of supply and demand also doesn't explain or account for things like race/gender pay gaps, monopsonies, and collusion. And generally this doesn't pass the sniff test--if the labor market shifts and suddenly people in your profession are in higher demand, it's extremely rare that companies offer pay raises to keep their employees. That's because they know that while theoretically their employees can reenter the labor market to negotiate a higher salary with a different employer, in practice employment is very sticky and employees tend not to--for lots of rational reasons (some of which are "oh you're a job hopper, declined").

> There was nothing stopping persons B, C, or D from being person A and founding a company for that idea.

This is generally untrue. Companies build moats with patents, litigation, monopolistic business practices, and corrupt, ladder pulling litigation. I think a lot of committed capitalists believe the market will sort this out, but it clearly doesn't. How many upstart chip design houses are there? How many upstart medical device companies are there? Etc. Etc.

Furthermore and again, not everyone has the privilege required to be A. Being A takes more risk, and you have to have more resources to reasonably take that risk. It's also been shown that it's far harder for women, recent immigrants, and people of color to become As.

> Anybody can make a giant sized, billion dollar company.

What?

> Those workers chose to work as employees under standard labor terms.

Often people don't have the resources to start businesses (let alone billion dollar businesses). It requires a lot of privilege, and it's even harder for women and people of color. It's not at all a simple choice.

> The early Microsoft employees that made lots of money from their stock options probably aren't bitter about their compensation.

While being pretty tough to prove, I would say a couple things here:

- Microsoft continues to post multi-billion dollar profits, and people still work there. I don't understand why early employees are valued more than current employees here.

- It's conceivable that even if you made a few million dollars, you might be bitter if the person next to you who didn't work appreciably harder than you made a billion. Everyone's different but, that seems possible.

- Even if these effects are less pronounced or acceptable at a place like Microsoft, concentrations of wealth and capital have destabilizing, corrupting effects on society and governments. Taking a per-company view is short sighted. It's also worth saying that most companies aren't made up of relatively wealth software engineers, and income inequality will be more pronounced.

Re: Billionaires Build

#848
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ignores the value of capital and organisation it doesn't. that capital was built by labor.

And indeed those workers who get paid, can save and invest that money to enhance the productivity of other workers and get a return. Generally the higher risk of losing the money, the more return you can potentially get. Some of those workers will hit the jackpot and get a great return. Is it morally wrong?

> And indeed those workers who get paid, can save and invest that money to enhance the productivity of other workers and get a return. Generally the higher risk of losing the money, the more return you can potentially get. Some of those workers will hit the jackpot and get a great return.

> Is it morally wrong?

Not per-se, but as the denominations grow, society is structured to privatize most of the upside of that risk, while socializing the downside, but at the lower end of the scale the reverse takes hold.

In other words, even aside from the way the ratio between CEO and average employee pay has ballooned over the past fifty years, upper management gets bonuses when the company does well, labor gets downsized when the company does poorly.

Another way this plays out is that if you owe the bank a few hundred thousand dollars and the company you work for goes out of business, you have a problem. If you owe the bank a few hundred million dollars and the company you work for goes out of business, the bank has a problem.

Re: Billionaires Build

#849
post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates has openly admitted how much his environment helped. Being genetically gifted as he is is only part of the equation. He also grew up in an affluent enough area to have early to computers as well as the time and supportive environment to pursue it. I wonder if people who claim environment doesnt matter have spent any appreciable time in poor neighborhoods. The absolute best will usually find their way out.…

> Bill Gates has openly admitted how much his environment helped. Being genetically gifted as he is is only part of the equation. He also grew up in an affluent enough area to have early to computers as well as the time and supportive environment to pursue it. Not to mention the role his familial connections had in his landing that sweetheart deal with IBM.

For the unaware, his mom was an acquaintance of the IBM CEO by virtue of both serving on the board of United Way, and Microsoft came up in conversation between them. A few weeks later IBM contracted Microsoft to write the operating system for the first IBM "personal computer".

Re: Billionaires Build

#850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less "your product is exploitative" and "you underpay (exploit) your workers for their labor." Bill Gates didn't write Windows 95. Steve Ballmer didn't write Microsoft Office. But they owned stock in a company that employed people that did (and all the various other labor that goes into building software products). Why did they make so much more money from it than the people who were more directly involved? This…

But what about the value of having A tell you what to build? If A = Jeff Bezos, B/C/D, who would just be making a $150K salary at some other company, are now multi millionaires. The difference in value didn't come from their work, which is much the same as it would be for some other company, but by being told what to build by the right CEO.

This is kind of the "great man" theory of business, but study after study shows that broadly this is just luck (or crime)--with privilege thrown in. As a result, we shouldn't reward people for this by making them billionaires because:

- At best there's no behavior to encourage, person A just got lucky. At worst, person A cheated and by making cheaters super rich, we give them outsized influence on our society

- creating billionaires creates bonkers, destabilizing income inequality, for which we rarely get anything in return (not everyone starts the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation)

- relying on this dynamic entrenches privilege, because it's much harder for women and people of color to become the next Steve Jobs (which is a weirdly super rare case to structure a society/economy/labor theory on, stipulating you think Steve Jobs was actually good at anything substantial).

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