Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#841

Post by GordonS » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #513

gzu wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your entire existence relies on a globalist system of slave level labor producing products from all corners of the world. Automation of every industry is impossible…

> The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your comment makes it complete clear you have a severe lack of real world experience. Go to a wealthy country. I mean an actual wealthy one where even lower class…

Not sure if you are thinking of Scandinavian countries? If so, I think you're exaggerating the wealth of your average citizen a tad, even if the point still stands.

But in Scandinavian countries it seems to be mainly immigrants that do the sucky jobs, even if they are better compensated than elsewhere (although of course everything is more expensive, food, housing, etc).

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#842

Post by bena » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #652

onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

The real answer is that UBI isn't just money. Basic housing is free. Basic foodstuffs are free. In addition to everything else being sold, you can just get milk. Or rice, or cheese. Or lots of things I haven't mentioned or thought of. No questions asked.

It would be difficult to have predatory pricing if there's a suitable, free alternative.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#843

Post by jakearmitage » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #759

bakuninsbart wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. They could spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment. Even with UBI they could still end up hungry or homeless. Will we help them? Or will we say "you had your UBI, the rest is on you". This changes the morals of how we treat people in the worst times. I think it should be p…

>In Germany, the vast majority of homeless people are addicts or people with major mental health problems. That's true in Canada and United States. The problem is that there are major legal barriers pushed through by activists to prevent forced institutionalization. Apparently it is a fundamental human right to live in a tent city off the freeway without basic sanitation.

Wait, so are you in favor of rounding up people in buses and sending them, against their will, in "institutions" for "their own good"?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#844

Post by yboris » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #652

onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

To get a little off topic, a huge benefit I see is poor people would be less at the mercy of abuse.

Currently, women can be stuck in abusive relationships which are challenging to escape. Having a reliable stream of incoming money can help then run away.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#845

Post by badmadrad » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

Promising people a never ending supply of money that they didn't earn will render people children dependent on mommy and daddy(government) to provide for them. This will stunt the growth and potential of many people.

Read the finnish experiment. All that happened is that people relxed and chilled on other's people money. They had no incentive to be productive so they weren't.

https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/nordic-welfare-news/heikki-h...

This UBI movement is another form of mass hysteria which if passed will hurt the US and our economy.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#846

Post by UnpossibleJim » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Speaking of points 2 and 3 (and I apologize for being a bit tangential), how are they not teaching home economics in school. I'm solidly GenX, and they didn't teach me Home Econ (luckily my parents took up that role). This is a point of education that has been sorely lacking in school for decades and it is truly confusing.

Young men and women are coming out of school without the basic knowledge of how to set basic budgets and balance checkbooks. How to understand interest and how that will effect their payments in the future. Understanding that principal comes out last unless you make extra payments, so that it behooves a person to spend a little less on amenities and pay down the principal now .... things like this don't seem to be offered in basic education. Not to mention basic life skill classes, as well (again, these also weren't offered when I was in school either). School seems to be ONLY college prep but, even then, not very well suited for the skills one needs to transition to living a life there.

Anyway, like I said... Tangential conversation. But, basic home econ would seem to address to a degree, points 2 and 3 if UBI were offered. Though, I will admit, I am a major proponent of "education will set you free".

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#847

Post by m3at » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

millstone wrote: post #582

sekai wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't Already happens, with welfare. > Predators - individuals and companies will find a way to take your UBI check from you as fast as possible Already happens, with welfare. > Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. Alre…

I wonder if this post was transported from 1996? The 2020 USA welfare state is bonkers stingy and punitive: prove you have these dependents and have been looking for work for this long and have not received benefits for this period... UBI would be an absolute sea change. It is not some mild extension of "welfare" which isn't really a thing. Go in clear-eyed!

I think you misread the parent, you're in agreement over UBI being beneficial:

> UBI covers a way larger group of people and gives them opportunities and flexibility, I only see that as win.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#848

Post by JoeAltmaier » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:31 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Pt 2: I don't get how UBI is supposed to be different from any other cash. It's all green.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#849

Post by kyletns » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:32 PM UTC

Sure, let's assume we can (and in fact should) grow endlessly on a finite planet. I'm sure that'll work out.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#850

Post by aglavine » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

>>>1. society will be easily divided into two groups: those >>>who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The >>>former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter.

I feel the opposite is more likely to be true.

An scenario of populist leaders capturing UBI individuals and controlling centralized UBI distribution, promising them benefits and at same time menacing them of cuts, and in the meantime dividing the non-UBI crowd with single issues like abortion.

Non-UBI people at the mercy of UBI people is the real danger.

3. I could see part of this as a good outcome. Charity is too many times a fraud. And people would not have any excuse to have their children begging on the streets.