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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#841

Post by Mankrik »

refurb wrote: post #596
Benjammer wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem that my employer faces. We have a strong concept of corporate responsibility, and plenty of opportunity for employee pushback, but we repeatedly see our decisions simply subverted by competitors who don't have any sense of morals and just go where the money is. It becomes a nasty tradeoff where you think about building/doing things that don't feel good, just to maintain a position to have a positive…

Wait, because your competitors will maintain MRAPs “they have no sense of morals”? Your morals are your own? Why do you insist on imposing them on others?

I get what you mean and it's a case by case basis, if people didn't try and push any morals we would all live in vacuums where all we have is the law to tell us what is _right_.

A lot of people have no problem with their countries governments manufacturing and/or selling arms to dictatorships that inflict harm on innocents and supply extremists e.g. UK-Saudi arms trading. As far as some are concerned the UK is just doing what another country may do instead.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#842

Post by assblaster »

Fomite wrote: post #738
chrisseaton wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - an MRAP is a 'battlefield taxi' - it's a basic vehicle to move around a hostile area - it's defensive. You aren't doing anything offensive from inside an MRAP unless it has a remote weapons station on top. Great for collecting casualties.

"Battlefield." "Hostile area". "Collecting Casualties". Cannot imagine why people might be concerned about its use in law enforcement.

From Wikipedia:

"The November 2015 Paris attacks were a series of coordinated terrorist attacks that took place on Friday, 13 November 2015 in Paris, France and the city's northern suburb, Saint-Denis. Beginning at 21:16 CET, three suicide bombers struck outside the Stade de France in Saint-Denis, during a football match. This was followed by several mass shootings and a suicide bombing, at cafés and restaurants. Gunmen carried out another mass shooting and took hostages at an Eagles of Death Metal concert in the Bataclan theatre, leading to a stand-off with police. The attackers were shot or blew themselves up when police raided the theatre."

As you can see, the streets of Paris did indeed become a battlefield, filled with hostile attackers, leading to many casualties. It's easy to see why even Paris was not immune to terrorism/armed assailants and needed to have armored vehicles.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#843

Post by kevmo »

jedberg wrote: post #276
kevmo wrote: post #166

I morally judge (not condemn) people who work at Google. If you can get a job at Google, you can get a job almost anywhere. There is tons of great work out there for you. People who work at Google are choosing to aid in the suppression of human freedom.

> If you can get a job at Google, you can get a job almost anywhere. Yes, but the job probably will pay less, at a smaller scale, with fewer perks, and be less interesting. Instead of judging them, perhaps you should support them in condemning their employer for this particular act.

Great pay and larger-scale work are not good excuses for human oppression.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#844

Post by partiallypro »

crispinb wrote: post #642
partiallypro wrote: post #453

I find the Google/Chinese search engine troubling, but I do think people are playing this up to be a lot more than it should be. I think one fact is that Google is in an area and recruits people that are hyper liberal individuals. For example: not wanting to work with the U.S. military on projects, having AI use gender neutral writing, random PC things, little diversity in political thought etc. I don't think Google…

> recruits people that are hyper liberal individuals Only from the very narrow perspective of current US politics - just normal in the mainstream West.

Don't confuse social programs with liberalism.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#845

Post by partiallypro »

sneak wrote: post #798
partiallypro wrote: post #453

I find the Google/Chinese search engine troubling, but I do think people are playing this up to be a lot more than it should be. I think one fact is that Google is in an area and recruits people that are hyper liberal individuals. For example: not wanting to work with the U.S. military on projects, having AI use gender neutral writing, random PC things, little diversity in political thought etc. I don't think Google…

Declining to work with paid murderers is not a partisan position. Opposing sexism is not a partisan position. Attempting to reframe these sorts of things as “lefty silliness” and paint them with the same brush as being sad and disappointed that a rapist won the election is simply subterfuge.

> Opposing sexism is not a partisan position.

No one claimed otherwise.

> Declining to work with paid murderers is not a partisan position.

I think your statement speaks for itself. I suppose everyone in the military should just be thrown in jail, since they are just murderers. There is no "good" use for military. I'm sure you also blame the US for all of the world's problems. The world would live in tranquility were it not for the evil US military.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#846

Post by partiallypro »

ionised wrote: post #820
YetAnotherNick wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Declining to work with paid murderers is not a partisan position. Calling military paid murderers is definitely a partisan thing. What else do you propose? Someone has to do the dirty work to keep the citizens safe. > Opposing sexism is not a partisan position. Are you talking about harassment cases. Have you been to Google or talked about it to a Googler? It generally is swift and works without any proof. What the…

> Calling military paid murderers is definitely a partisan thing. What else do you propose? Someone has to do the dirty work to keep the citizens safe. How exactly did US operations in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Nicaragua etc. keep you 'safe'?

As someone that worked to get someone asylum from Afghanistan, there are many many many citizens in Afghanistan that long to have the US back with a significant presence. It's not easy sleeping when a car bomb just went off outside your house and it was targeted at you for not being a religious hardliner.. The US isn't always about keeping its own citizens safe, it often steps in when there is genocide, etc.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#847

Post by ionised »

partiallypro wrote: post #846
ionised wrote: post #820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling military paid murderers is definitely a partisan thing. What else do you propose? Someone has to do the dirty work to keep the citizens safe. How exactly did US operations in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Nicaragua etc. keep you 'safe'?

As someone that worked to get someone asylum from Afghanistan, there are many many many citizens in Afghanistan that long to have the US back with a significant presence. It's not easy sleeping when a car bomb just went off outside your house and it was targeted at you for not being a religious hardliner.. The US isn't always about keeping its own citizens safe, it often steps in when there is genocide, etc.

> there are many many many citizens in Afghanistan that long to have the US back with a significant presence

Which would be true of any military force that invaded, slaughtered hundreds of thousands and then pulled out leaving a power vacuum.

The US didn't go into Afghanistan to save people from car bombs.

If the US has somehow done you a favour as a result of its wars of aggression, it's a complete coincidence.

> It's not easy sleeping when a car bomb just went off outside your house and it was targeted at you for not being a religious hardliner..

Sounds like Iraq and the rise of ISIS doesn't it? Another US war of aggression that left hundreds of thousands dead along with a power vacuum filled by religious extremists.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#848

Post by PeterisP »

derangedHorse wrote: post #831
colordrops wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between boycotting products made in China and protesting against building technologies that enable dictatorial regimes. They do not deserve to be conflated.

They're not "enabling" a dictatorial regime, they're just following the laws of a foreign government. Making a censored search engine isn't "supporting" the government, it's just abiding by it.

A censored search engine is a direct instrument of oppression.

Contracting to build a censored search engine is the moral equivalent of contracting to build a barbed wire fence around a concentration camp.

You're being an active participant that directly assists in making that oppression happen by building tools required for the actual act of oppression, as opposed to building something that merely done in the same country.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#849

Post by learc83 »

ameister14 wrote: post #834
learc83 wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>copyright and defamatory statements These are much bigger restrictions that impact far more people than the others you mentioned. >Fighting words is essentially a dead precedent, and all that remains is inciting imminent violence, which I mentioned. There's also huge limitations on commercial speech; obscenity (which covers more than child pornography); reasonable time, manner, and place restrictions; perjury; black…

Obscenity doesn't cover much more than child pornography. It used to, but not anymore. You should read Reno v ACLU. The reasonable time, manner and place restrictions aren't enforced and also wouldn't be upheld, but you're right, perjury, blackmail and some kinds of harassment aren't covered. Solicitations to commit crimes actually aren't always illegal.

>Obscenity doesn't cover much more than child pornography. It used to, but not anymore.

The definition of obscenity isn't well defined, but there are still numerous laws throughout the US that ban obscene speech that have been upheld--zoophilia porn laws, and bans on selling sex toys are 2 examples I can think of off the top of my head.

>The reasonable time, manner and place restrictions aren't enforced and also wouldn't be upheld

The government very regularly enforces this. What do you think free speech zones and protest permits are for?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#850

Post by AndyMcConachie »

nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

The key here is you acted together. Individuals acting alone have very little bargaining power. But once employees start acting together with a single purpose their power gets very difficult to ignore.

Whether people believe unions are a good idea or not, the key is to organize into something that allows people to work together and find common ground to address common problems.

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