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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#841
post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

Most importantly to me, it was written directly as a response to a request for comments on the subject. People made it out to be a rant someone just threw out there, but it wasn't. It was also published a month before, and internal polls at Google found it to be non-offensive.

That doesn't stop people from whipping up mass hysteria about it.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#842
This "ask" has an issue for me already: why would a female engineer know better than a male engineer?

As long as someone feels to have an informed opinion about the subject, he/she should feel free to present his view.

(I am a male (ex) software engineer, and I sure as hell have an opinion about it - to give you the TL;DR: his intention was to stimulate a conversation, he did it in an awkward way, and he's not perfect. And no, Google should have not fired him, but if you have ever worked in a large corporate environment, you might have a good idea why they did anyway).

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness. Advice Damore would have done well to heed when writing his essay. You should also note there are serious questions about its validity - this is not just a matter of tone or style. https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-...

So I read that, and it's not so much "serious questions about validity" as "overall weak agreement disguised as rebuttal". The main takeaway in the form of disagreement is that social science findings are mostly untrustworthy/not usable?

The point I took away was that this is not settled science at all and he was cherry picking results in order to buttress a conclusion which he'd already made, but also that the differences between men and women on average simply are not large enough to explain the disparities in tech, not even close. There are many other rebuttals which focus on other points, for example if the reason for disparities in women and men in tech is biological, why was the balance significantly altered within a few decades from the 70s to now?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#844
post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

The memo suffered from a lack of 2nd order thinking. If Google really is using its diversity programs to "lower the bar", that's what should have been proven and addressed, whether men and women have innate differences in talent for certain occupations is irrelevant. It's Google's perogative/obligation to find and retain the best talent. I suspect that's what the purpose of their diversity programs are for. If they're not, and they are truly attempting to "lower the bar" for ideological reasons, then by all means call them on it, but the labor market will punish them for you. The whole memo was an irrelevant red herring to the topic of Google's hiring practices.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#845
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wired article was excellent. And it proves one thing to my mind. Regardless of everything else, Damore's memo has lead me to vastly expand my knowledge of the debates in this domain, through just being a curious observer watching it all unfold. It's been wonderful, if extremely provocative, in generating proper debate on the subject, focussed on all possible angles, from writing style, to science, to hiring poli…

What? The Wired article basically says "the social sciences of gender are still up for grabs/worthless, unlike nuclear physics".

Different strokes I guess. I liked that the authors took great pains to stick to highlighting the nuanced nature of the debate. They agreed with Damore where pertinent, but also disagreed with a lot of the conclusions that he derived.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#846
post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, honest answer. First off, saying 70% nurses are women does not indicate discrimination. Plenty of the jobs I've applied for as a woman are small startups with over 70% men but I've never thought that this was due to discrimination. We're talking here about a policy that Google engages in voluntarily. So we know that according to the memo that Google seeks to reduce the number of "false negative" rejections of d…

>> First off, saying 70% nurses are women does not indicate discrimination. Totally agree. As for 70%, that's a completely contrived number in this case. Think of it as 90% or whatever line-in-the-sand we need. So Damore was concerned the bar was being lowered, and was concerned the goal was 50-50 ("Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate"…

You both make really good points, and I think you're both right.

Let P = "women are less inclined to be engineers" and Q = "women are not suited to be engineers".

For the sake of argument, let's assume the best in Damore. Assume he believes P but not Q, and that he was earnestly criticizing some company practices with the aim of improving them, not seeking attention or controversy. (I realize that many doubt this, but no one can definitively prove his intentions one way or another, so I don't think there's much point in debating it.)

Given those assumptions, can we all agree on the following?

- P is true, though it may be a socialized thing rather than an innate thing.

- Q is false, based on lots of anecdotal evidence.

- P does not imply Q.

- But Q, if it were true, would imply P. That is, hypothetically, not being skilled at engineering would give women a reason to avoid the profession.

- Consequently, to someone who hasn't entirely ruled out Q yet (either due to bias or lack of experience), P(Q|P) > P(Q).

(If the logic isn't clear, consider the analogy of P = "it's cloudy" and Q = "it's raining". It's currently cloudy but not raining. If someone hasn't been outdoors and I mention that it's cloudy, the probability of rain given their limited information increases.)

- So reinforcing P risks reinforcing Q, even if it isn't intentional. Since beliefs in Q can be very harmful to women, we should tread carefully when discussing P.

- Damore believes P.

- Damore's stance on Q is less clear. His essay had a blurb ("the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ") which seems to imply Q, or some variation thereof.

- If we give Damore the benefit of the doubt, we could interpret his stance on Q as follows. Men and women have various biological differences, and surely some of them have some effect on engineering ability. It's just unreasonable to assume that the aggregate difference in zero. It might be totally negligible though. It might also be in favor of women rather than men. Perhaps women are better at juggling multiple tasks, or their social skills make them more effective engineers within an organization.

- Although no one can say with certainty what Damore's intentions were, here's my take. He didn't realistically expect his essay to change Google's practices, but figured it would start an interesting debate. He knew it was a sensitive subject, but didn't expect a reaction of such magnitude, since his essay was mainly establishing P, and the facts are on his side there. He generally avoided the subject of Q, but he could have done a better job. Since his argument only depends on PνQ, he should have explicitly declared Q false (or at least irrelevant) and focused entirely on P.

- Morally speaking, it seems wrong fire employees based on uncertain interpretations of their intent. So he shouldn't have been fired for his stance on Q, because it wasn't clear what that stance was exactly. And he shouldn't have been fired for intentionally stirring controversy, because it's not clear if that was his intent.

- Even if Damore had the best of intentions, it's still possible to justify his firing based on negligence about the effect of his essay. I don't think he was grossly negligent though, since he sent his essay to a mailing list where controversial discussions are common.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). This was addressed in the article. This burden has fallen on w…

I'm not talking about a woman having to prove her technical ability to her male coworkers at work because of their prejudices. I know that that's bullshit and I'm sorry they have to do so. I'm talking about handling what Damore claimed in an intellectually honest way. You can't dismiss his points just because you're tired of talking about them (or what you think are the same points you've always been talking about, b…

Just because someone makes points that have some relationship to facts doesn't mean they can't still be held responsible for disparaging things you say. Imagine if he had written a 10 page paper about how they shouldn't hire so many fat people because they cost more in health insurance, with all sorts of facts and numbers to back up his claim.

Or if he wrote it about short people, that they, on average, were worse coders. I am sure you could find some semi-reasonable sounding studies showing some correlation between height and some definition of success.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted argument doesn't make sense. If the hiring standards are the same for women an men then you know that any women at the company is as qualified as any men at least until you get to know more about them, there is just less of them - no reason to prove anything. If on the other hand any kind of affirmative action is in place then you would be right to assume average women is less qualified than an average man bec…

If what you say is true then in workplaces without affirmative action programs we should not expect to find any workers who thinks the women that work there are less qualified than the men who work there. (Because the "cause", affirmative action, is not in place.) Do you really think that is the case? > The place to take action is in early schooling to get more women interested in tech or give them more opportunities…

>>If what you say is true then in workplaces without affirmative action programs we should not expect to find any workers who thinks the women that work there are less qualified than the men who work there. (Because the "cause", affirmative action, is not in place.)

Sadly that's not the case. Affirmative action makes prejudice rational but it's not the only reason people display prejudice. If A implies B then removing A doesn't make B false.

>>Yes, this is what many of Google's diversity programs are intended to do.

Good for them. They really should keep discrimination when hiring away from it. "We don't lower the bar but we look for more candidates among X group" is discrimination. The same way "We don't lower the bar but we look for more candidates among white people" is discrimination based on race.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#850
post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, honest answer. First off, saying 70% nurses are women does not indicate discrimination. Plenty of the jobs I've applied for as a woman are small startups with over 70% men but I've never thought that this was due to discrimination. We're talking here about a policy that Google engages in voluntarily. So we know that according to the memo that Google seeks to reduce the number of "false negative" rejections of d…

>> First off, saying 70% nurses are women does not indicate discrimination. Totally agree. As for 70%, that's a completely contrived number in this case. Think of it as 90% or whatever line-in-the-sand we need. So Damore was concerned the bar was being lowered, and was concerned the goal was 50-50 ("Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate"…

Addendum to my sibling comment, since HN won't let me edit it:

So the parent's concern does seem justified. It seems conceivable that Damore didn't have any beliefs that most would consider sexist, and didn't have any ill intentions, but was still fired. Hence the throwaway -- it feels like us men have to be extremely cautious when discussing gender.

But again, I recognize that discussing P risks promoting Q, which is the harmful stereotype, so perhaps it's for the best that we don't discuss the topic more freely.

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