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The United States withdraws from UNESCO

state.gov

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Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#831

Post by [deleted] »

BigJ1211 wrote: post #826
sys32768 wrote: post #678

According to the UN, genocide: >...means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.... Besides Iceland, all UN member nations have a history of land acquisition through force, colonization, or dispossession. By their own definition, they're all guilty of genocide "in part" at some point in their histories, with several in the last…

Ethnic cleansing isn't genocide and vise-versa. Genocide is very specifically about murdering a group of individuals for their shared characteristic, not displacing them. In this case, the Palestinians and other groups want to genocide the Jews. The Jews seem to mostly (or smaller groups within Israel at least) want to ethnically cleanse the non-Jewish Palestinians from modern day Israel.

[deleted]

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#832

Post by tavavex »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #825
tavavex wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't think I articulated the main point of what makes the 'theatrics' seem like such to me. It's not just about putting things about international relations into law - most countries do that in regards to war, economics, immigration, etc. It's that this whole 'punishment' is contingent on something so seemingly minor as UN membership (a.k.a. state recognition?). People hate Iran and North Korea, but I don't…

> that this whole 'punishment' is contingent on something so seemingly minor as UN membership (a.k.a. state recognition?) If the battle lines are on recognition, that's where the fight will be. Once a country is broadly recognised, it's a moot point. (We don't recognise the governments in Tehran, Havana and Caracas, for example.) > People hate Iran and North Korea, but I don't think many are arguing for them to be ex…

In the context of the US, is recognizing a government different from recognizing a country? Is a refusal to deal with Taliban functionally equivalent to not recognizing Afghanistan at all?

> The best analogy is Beijing vis-à-vis Taiwan. Not only does Beijing not recognise Taipei, it also punishes countries and multi-lateral organisations who do.

This is a close analogy, but the important distinction here is that the PRC is the claimant to the ROC, so they have a straightforward and very strong motivation to thwart their recognition at all costs, as to avoid delegitimizing their own claims on it. The US, on the other hand, is a complete third party to either Israel or Palestine. They have interests and goals in the area, but nothing nearly as extreme as China's situation. That's what makes this situation so unique to me, it seems so disproportional of a reaction for a country that's not a party in the war. It makes sense if Israel does it, but the US?

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#833

Post by tguvot »

skybrian wrote: post #808
tguvot wrote: post #800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he wasn't talking about forced migration. he was talking about giving people housing/etc in other countries while gaza been rebuild, and later if they want they can come back. at no point he was saying that gazans will be rounded up and moved out. the way that conversation is going now is (and i am not trump fan): - everybody: gaza is destroyed and nobody can live there. conditions are inhumane - trump: lets allow to…

I don't know any details about what the Trump administration proposed. Is there more to it than a few tweets? A US administration that was serious about this would propose a deal to take some refugees from Gaza as a sign of good will. Something like "we will take 25% if other countries agree to take 75%." To say that other countries should take all the refugees, when they've shown no interest in it, is deeply cynical…

what i typed is pretty much as much as was said. forced expulsion was never mention. only facilitating relocation for those who want better life/new opportunities. as I posted below, 50% are interested in this.

i saw some interviews with gazans that said, that in case EU/USA/Canada will accept refugees, Gaza will become empty overnight.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#834

Post by Mr_Minderbinder »

geoka9 wrote: post #813
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is bery culturally relevant and rising. But otherwise yeah I agree with you

> China is bery culturally relevant Sure, every country is. But I think what the OP meant is that US cultural artifacts are (have been so far) much more in demand. I don't remember the last time I watched a Chinese movie or listened to a Chinese band... It could be because I'm in a western country, but I've also lived in Central Asia and Eastern Europe, and American movies, music and literature were much more popular…

> I don't remember the last time I watched a Chinese movie or listened to a Chinese band…

I have seen quite a few films from Hong Kong and a few have achieved some level of popularity and recognition in the West but perhaps you do not consider a HK movie to be a Chinese movie.

> ...I've also lived in Central Asia and Eastern Europe, and American movies, music and literature were much more popular there, too.

I can believe that for movies and maybe music but certainly not literature.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#835

Post by JumpCrisscross »

tavavex wrote: post #832
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that this whole 'punishment' is contingent on something so seemingly minor as UN membership (a.k.a. state recognition?) If the battle lines are on recognition, that's where the fight will be. Once a country is broadly recognised, it's a moot point. (We don't recognise the governments in Tehran, Havana and Caracas, for example.) > People hate Iran and North Korea, but I don't think many are arguing for them to be ex…

In the context of the US, is recognizing a government different from recognizing a country? Is a refusal to deal with Taliban functionally equivalent to not recognizing Afghanistan at all? > The best analogy is Beijing vis-à-vis Taiwan. Not only does Beijing not recognise Taipei, it also punishes countries and multi-lateral organisations who do. This is a close analogy, but the important distinction here is that the…

> In the context of the US, is recognizing a government different from recognizing a country?

In the context of anyone, it depends on what changed. The Iranian Revolution changed Iran's government but not borders or existence. Kosovo, on the other hand, created both a new government and a new state.

> the important distinction here is that the PRC is the claimant to the ROC, so they have a straightforward and very strong motivation to thwart their recognition at all costs, as to avoid delegitimizing their own claims on it. The US, on the other hand, is a complete third party to either Israel or Palestine

Direct versus indirect. Go back to the Cold War (or perhaps more accurately, decolonisation) and the USSR and U.S. were doing this by proxy, too. (And everyone was doing it, almost out of necessity, during the world wars.)

My point is this sort of posturing is deeply precedented when geopolitical maps change because the loser has nothing to lose and something to gain from holding off recognition of whatever just changed. (Even if that gain is just not having to deal with it right now.)

If you want a more-direct example, it would be Pakistan supporting Beijing over its claims over Arunachal Pradesh. Pakistan does this because India is its enemy and China its ally. In the Middle East, Iran is America's enemy and Israel its ally. What the people in Arunachal Pradesh or Palestine think about the matter sort of gets swept under the rug. (Or Beijing giving lip service or North Korea and Iran arms to support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, if you want to rule out the size influence factor.)

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#836

Post by azinman2 »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #824
azinman2 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it’s not actually about Israel.

So we want to shoot ourselves in the knees, for fun? It's clearly about Israel, otherwise we wouldn't be giving a country billions that we can't trust with our military secrets (because they sell them to our adversaries), that has a track record of killing American citizens and never prosecuting anyone responsible, and who constantly defies us despite relying on us to even exist

Multiple things can be true at the same time. US military / political support for Israel is multifaceted. But I’d argue trumps use of Israel as a reason to punish academia or withdraw from unesco is not.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#837

Post by aprilthird2021 »

azinman2 wrote: post #836
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we want to shoot ourselves in the knees, for fun? It's clearly about Israel, otherwise we wouldn't be giving a country billions that we can't trust with our military secrets (because they sell them to our adversaries), that has a track record of killing American citizens and never prosecuting anyone responsible, and who constantly defies us despite relying on us to even exist

Multiple things can be true at the same time. US military / political support for Israel is multifaceted. But I’d argue trumps use of Israel as a reason to punish academia or withdraw from unesco is not.

So the only use of Israel to us is as an untrustworthy ally and a cudgel to bludgeon our own citizens with. Great. Love that

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#838

Post by pstuart »

AlexandrB wrote: post #257
pstuart wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you realize that the Culture War is originating from the Right, and that it's a tar trap for those on the Left. More so, that the whole point of this War is to foster anger and division, so that we squabble amongst ourselves rather than the elite who own us all.

I don't think that's quite right. I think over the last 10 years a lot of the anti-corporate energy of Occupy Wall Street has been funnelled - by means of the culture war - into "identity" issues that have little potential to harm corporate power or profits. I would argue that this did not originate on the right or left but was the result of a political class that's beholden to endless donations. To me, one really cl…

> I don't think that's quite right. I think over the last 10 years a lot of the anti-corporate energy of Occupy Wall Street has been funnelled - by means of the culture war - into "identity" issues that have little potential to harm corporate power or profits. I would argue that this did not originate on the right or left but was the result of a political class that's beholden to endless donations.

No disrespect, but that makes no sense.

This version of the Culture Wars have been with us for decades. Before the Trans Panic™ there was the Gay Panic. Abortion was a non-issue (even for Republicans) until they realized they could rally the troops around dead babies. And racism? That's been part of the very fabric of the US since the beginning.

Immigration has been well-documented in how waves of newcomers have been despised until a generation later when they're settled in and they can turn around and hate on the new crop (Irish, German, Italian, etc). Hating newcomers is a veritable tradition.

As to the donor class etc, yes, the Democratic Elites are looking after the elites and not the people (shocking!), but it doesn't mean rank and file Democrats are that way (note: I am not a party member).

The "both sides are the same" bit has traditionally had a fair amount of truth in that (the elites thing), but now that the GOP is the Party of Trump that can longer be said.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#839

Post by JumpCrisscross »

master_crab wrote: post #810
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> melodramatic, overdone theatrics that the US doesn't seem to do to anyone else Iran and North Korea. China with Taiwan. This is deeply precedented geopolitical drama. > It ends up coming off as the US bowing on their knees to relatively minor nations If Israel and Palestine are your issue, of course. (Everything will tend to be. This is just how pet causes and the availability heuristic work.) If not, it doesn’t.

Clearly Palestine is as big a threat to the US as China.

> Clearly Palestine is as big a threat to the US as China

Kosovo isn't a threat to Brazil or Madagascar [1].

Countries grant, withhold and withdraw recognition for a variety of reasons.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_K...

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#840

Post by pstuart »

david38 wrote: post #245
pstuart wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you'll find that almost all of those people are deeply religious, and that's not a coincidence. There's a surrender of thought to authoritative power in both cases. I share the same horrible experience of having these last 10 years open my eyes wide to the reality of humanity.

This is reactionary, elitist, and false. I know many of “those people” and not a single one of them religious. American leftist insults always go like this - X is bad, but only if it originated from us. The self loathing is amazing. * Religion is bad, but only if it’s Christianity. * Men are bad, unless they’re trans * Gender is a social construct, but race is real * culture is important, unless it’s associated with…

"False" I can entertain, but reactionary? Elitist? Huh?

Your list of grievances is like a Fox News handout for viewers to remember what they hate about DemonRats.

Your "assumptions":

  * Religion is bad, but only if it’s Christianity. 
  * Men are bad, unless they’re trans 
  * Gender is a social construct, but race is real
  * culture is important, unless it’s associated with whites, because they don’t have culture
Can be "fixed":

  * Your Religion is yours, don't make it mine (regardless of which flavored cult)
  * Men no longer get to be the boss just because they're men 
  * Gender is a personal "choice"
  * Culture is important (and "white culture" is tempting to make light of in that it's "punching up", and it's kind of Wonder Bread bland).
LOL IRL on the right wing balancing act, but I'll agree with the statements except for the blanket "religion is good" (it's conditional), and the Islamophobia (which I love as much as I love christianity).

I'm happy for you that you have people to pat you on the back and tell you you're smart -- we all could use a little emotional support.

Edit: I only have two Trump supporters in my friend list -- they are both intelligent, kind, and devoutly religious. Obviously I have n=2 personally, but it's a thing to very Christian and very Trumpy. It's an observation, not a judgement.

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