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Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

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Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#831

Post by edanm »

SauciestGNU wrote: post #584
iddan wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easily overlooking the holocaust, the farhud and the pogroms. Israel was founded because Jewish people were not safe without a state.

Jewish people were unsafe because of antisemites and antisemitism, not because they lacked an ethnostate. The diaspora also deserves safety, with or without an Israel.

> Jewish people were unsafe because of antisemites and antisemitism, not because they lacked an ethnostate.

1. Unfortunately, antisemitism is alive and well.

2. It is an unfortunate reality that Jews in particular have been persecuted throughout history. But I think it's true that most people want a state of their own, to protect them and to live in the way that they want to live. This is the source of most modern countries/states - some ethnicity with on some specific land deciding to turn it into their state.

The only reason Jews were different was because they were ethnically cleansed by the Roman empire from their own land, and dispersed across the entire Jewish diaspora. This made their situation worse than most ethnicities, made them even more in need of a land to call their own.

> The diaspora also deserves safety, with or without an Israel.

Of course. Everyone deserves safety. I wish everyone got what they deserved.

But we don't get rid of the police force because "no one deserves to be murdered". The world doesn't run just on what people deserves.

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#832

Post by edanm »

bjourne wrote: post #749
edanm wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're technically correct of course. Then again, the overwhelming majority of people talking about Israel not having a right to exist are advocating for the violent overthrow of it that by when you're repeating their slogans, you're not advocating what they're advocating. Also, while there are some valid reasons for the idea that "Israel doesn't have a fundamental right to exist" (like if you think no state has a ri…

> You're technically correct of course. That's the "correct" that matters. Not the "I'd like to put words in your mouth and pretend you meant something you don't". Israel is legal abstraction, not human life and as such has no "fundamental rights" whatsoever. Humans have fundamental rights, however, and those rights always trump the non-rights of state entities. You do know that the reason Zionists harp on about "Isr…

> That's the "correct" that matters. Not the "I'd like to put words in your mouth and pretend you meant something you don't".

I think I made it clear that I don't think parent post was saying that.

> Israel is legal abstraction, not human life and as such has no "fundamental rights" whatsoever. Humans have fundamental rights, however, and those rights always trump the non-rights of state entities.

I don't know what any of that means. Does the US have fundamental rights? When it was attacked by Japan in WW2, did it have a right to defend itself? What does that even mean if "the US" has no fundamental rights?

(You could mean a lot of different things with this statement, hence my asking for a clarification. But there's a lot of history and philosophy about these concepts, and just FYI I believe you are stating a very minority view on how to think about countries.)

> You do know that the reason Zionists harp on about "Israel's right to exist" is to deny the victim's of that state's violence legal redress, right?

No, the reason Zionists "harp on" about Israel's right to exist is because so many people believe Israel, uniquely among countries, doesn't have a right to exist. For the first 30 years of its history, this included most of Israel's neighbors, who didn't just abstractly believe in Israel not having a right to exist - they went to war with Israel several times with the aim of getting rid of it.

Even today, some of Israel's neighbors insist it doesn't have the right to exist, including Iran, which is a hair away from having nukes, and which has spent billions of its people's resources to try and destroy Israel. This is not an abstract debate, its a very real threat to the lives of all Israelis.

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#833

Post by immibis »

wqaatwt wrote: post #814
immibis wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Do you condemn Hamas What’s the alternative? Regardless of what Israel did or did not do Hamas could have ended this “war” at any moment they wanted to. None of their actions were in any way remotely in the interest of the people of Gaza. Providing them [Hamas] material or other support only prolonged it..

This is proven false by the existence of the West Bank, where is there no Hamas and there's still a war. Who is fighting the war there?

In case you're commenting in good faith and genuinely don't know this, "Do you condemn Hamas?" refers to a pattern in media interviews from the earlier days of the holocaust. The interviewer would simply ignore what the interviewee said and repeat "Do you condemn Hamas?" until the interviewee answered with a boolean, at which point the interview was over. No discussion was allowed. You either support everything Israel is doing (boolean true answer) or you are a terrorist (boolean false answer). No nuance allowed. No debate allowed. No facts allowed.

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#834

Post by monetus »

Retric wrote: post #809
baq wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.

Having outside actors in the conversation is a strength.

The contention is that they in particular aren't good faith actors unlike other outside actors, iiuc.

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#835

Post by jwr »

spencerflem wrote: post #762
jwr wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But… they can't remove citizenship retroactively. What I mean is today there are citizens and non-citizens, but there are no classes of citizens. Either you have citizenship or you do not, it doesn't matter how you acquired it.

That's their plan though :c So far a judge has blocked it when he tried the first time https://www.npr.org/2025/01/23/nx-s1-5270572/birthright-citi...

I read this article (and others) and I am still unclear. I thought this whole idiotic crusade applied only to newly born children. It never even crossed my mind that you could revoke citizenship from your citizens. I mean, the principle of non-retroactivity dates back to the Roman Empire.

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#836

Post by wordofx »

dragonwriter wrote: post #628
wordofx wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Hamas has broken ever cease fire since they took power. Israel has broken every ceasefire, though US media tends to treat Israeli attacks as hiccups and challenges to ceasefires involving Israel and those on the other side as more serious. This is similar to the way that the same linguistic cause/effect separation (sometimes termed the “exonerative tense” or “exonerative mood”) frequently used to deflect responsibi…

[flagged]

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#837

Post by Braxton1980 »

baq wrote: post #652
Retric wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehh, I’ve got not particular stake in this conflict so it’s really interesting to see how each side is using propaganda and how obvious the propaganda is when you’re not emotionally invested. Each side is using different tactics to fit the strength of their positions and how well various messages resonate. “They are the same anyway” is useful for a side who wants people to be inactive, it’s not some universal benefit…

Both sides want their side engaged and the other apathetic. On a national level this means FSB employing hundreds if not thousands of people to troll political discourse in social media in the west to maximize the amount of ‘I don’t care anymore’ people. A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures.

So. Maybe my experience but why are these bots and trolls always pushing messages that help the Republicans.

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#838

Post by someotherperson »

breppp wrote: post #632
someotherperson wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a dog whistle rather than providing something substantive. The Israeli government also helped facilitate Qatar's support for Hamas[0], what's your point here? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas#Isra...

The Israeli government allowed transfer of Qatari money to Hamas as a mean to buy quiet, stemmed from the belief Hamas is a rational organization that strives to improve Palestinian life through its government of the Gaza Strip, an awful mistake. Qatar however is a supporter of the islamist Muslim Brotherhood ideology behind Hamas, financier and a host for most of its leadership. Furthermore involved in other terror…

[flagged]

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#839

Post by djohnston »

ebcode wrote: post #535
whatshisface wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only feel safe to speak out against the violations of law if you feel safe from them.

No. I speak out, and I don't feel safe. It takes courage.

Your bravery is inspiring.

Re: Leaked data reveals Israeli govt campaign to remove pro-Palestine posts on Meta

#840

Post by grafmax »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #457
aucisson_masque wrote: post #24

I like to think we are in a better place than russia for instance with all its propaganda and jailed journalists, but then i see these kind of article come over and over.... Most of the people in the 'free world' goes on mainstream media, like facebook to get their news. These companies are enticed to 'suck up' to the government because at the end they are business, they need to be in good term with ruling class. you…

>Another difference would be that you are allowed to express your opinion, whereas in russia you would be put to jail, that's true but only in a very limited way. Although not even close in number and punishment the US government is deporting people for speaking against Israel. I think we do have a much better system because we are aware of these cases, you can speak out about the issue, and our court system can rule…

In the US the upper class rules by soft power that gives people the illusion of choice while actually they hold all the power.

I agree it’s better that we don’t yet see individuals directly punished at scale for dissent.

But if this is all we settle for we’re like dogs fighting for scraps.

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