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Pope Francis has died

reuters.com

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Re: Pope Francis has died

#821

Post by tptacek »

skissane wrote: post #820
tptacek wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mistake me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with saying the mass in Latin. I'd kind of like to go see one! Put my 4 years of Jesuit Latin to use! But no, I don't think that's going to be a big draw for ordinary people to join the church. My Greek Orthodox friends growing up definitely spoke Greek!

It would definitely attract some people. An old friend of mine (from our Catholic high school), who almost never goes to Mass, told me he’d be willing to venture back if it were in Latin, just for the experience. We started looking into it, we were going to go together, but lost interest in the idea when we realised there weren’t any convenient to attend. I don’t know how common that attitude is, but I’m sure he’s no…

There are clearly people who are interested very specifically in the Latin mass. But even though the church is losing practicing members, it's still huge; normie Catholics dwarf tradcaths.

But again: drawing people isn't the point. Francis didn't crack down on TLM because he thought it was a bad way to get people to show up at mass! He did it because things in the church with TLM were getting weird. It's a doctrinal thing, not a marketing strategy.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#822

Post by inemesitaffia »

za3faran wrote: post #804
inemesitaffia wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Such organization doesn't exist actually, it's a zionist straw man.

Lol straw man. It's a present reality.

Ask the Arabs and Levantine Muslims where all their Jews are. Why Lebanon is Muslim. Why their states are Islamic and why they have issues with religious and cultural states that they aren't a majority of.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#823

Post by inemesitaffia »

tptacek wrote: post #791
inemesitaffia wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clear direction for church growth.

You hear this a lot from TLM proponents. First, it's a category error to suggest that church doctrine has a goal of maximizing the number of people to that turn out to mass. But second, no, it really isn't. The idea that a great way to get lots of ordinary people to become practicing Catholics is to literally conduct services in a dead language nobody understands is an extraordinary claim.

>maximizing the number of people to that turn out to mass

Mark 16:15.

Hebrews 10:25.

The Church organisation is very distinct from the church. And anything that increases their participation is in line with scripture. Both growth and attendance are important.

There's already evidence it works. And it's something that sets the church apart.

Romans 12:2 indeed.

In Antioch [Acts 11:26] people were first called Christians. They weren't the regular people of that time. But people with something that made them visibly different from the Hoi Polloi.

What really is the point of a consecration that doesn't change you? What are you being set apart from?

Re: Pope Francis has died

#824

Post by tptacek »

inemesitaffia wrote: post #823
tptacek wrote: post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hear this a lot from TLM proponents. First, it's a category error to suggest that church doctrine has a goal of maximizing the number of people to that turn out to mass. But second, no, it really isn't. The idea that a great way to get lots of ordinary people to become practicing Catholics is to literally conduct services in a dead language nobody understands is an extraordinary claim.

>maximizing the number of people to that turn out to mass Mark 16:15. Hebrews 10:25. The Church organisation is very distinct from the church. And anything that increases their participation is in line with scripture. Both growth and attendance are important. There's already evidence it works. And it's something that sets the church apart. Romans 12:2 indeed. In Antioch [Acts 11:26] people were first called Christian…

I just find this sentiment really kind of funny, given how small the number of people who are passionately committed to it, vs. people who attend folk-group mass. But I'm not here to convert you!

Re: Pope Francis has died

#825

Post by hoseja »

somenameforme wrote: post #539
numbers_guy wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only American Protesting Catholics had issues with him. The same ones that post Deus Vult memes on Facebook.

Look up some numbers, his approval ratings outside of America were rapidly declining (at least in Latin America). [1] Interestingly the US is the one place where his approval ratings didn't decline over time, probably owing to the perfectly divided nature of contemporary politics. As he lost support from one side he gained it in equal proportions from the other. But in places like Argentina, his birth place no less,…

I saw a map of countries he visited as the Pope and Argentina wasn't even there. Feels really strange.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#826

Post by AStonesThrow »

andrepd wrote: post #192
AStonesThrow wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always seems weird and ignorant for people to be labeling Catholic bishops as “left-wing” or “right-wing” or “liberal/progressive” or “conservative”. Those are all political terms for politicians and their platforms or parties. They do not translate to Catholic doctrines or teachings. Y’all are simply parroting what the lamestream media wants to impose, a political veneer on non-politicians who are shepherds, past…

There very much is such a thing as a "progressive" and "conservative" wing in Catholicism, and the Vatican is well known to be very much a viper's nest. It's naive to imply that all those clergymen are simply "shepherds, pastors, teachers".

"Our left-right political paradigm does not map neatly onto ancient institutions." -- Michael Knowles

https://youtu.be/y0v0xQdiY7U

Re: Pope Francis has died

#828

Post by inemesitaffia »

tptacek wrote: post #824
inemesitaffia wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>maximizing the number of people to that turn out to mass Mark 16:15. Hebrews 10:25. The Church organisation is very distinct from the church. And anything that increases their participation is in line with scripture. Both growth and attendance are important. There's already evidence it works. And it's something that sets the church apart. Romans 12:2 indeed. In Antioch [Acts 11:26] people were first called Christian…

I just find this sentiment really kind of funny, given how small the number of people who are passionately committed to it, vs. people who attend folk-group mass. But I'm not here to convert you!

For me it's not just about the in practice Latin suppression and the pretense it's not happening.

My reply is primarily about Church growth and the importance of fellowship.

Wherever you go, don't imagine this sentiment is American/Western only as many have claimed/alluded.

If Christ doesn't change you nothing really has changed.

Proselytizing by active action and being examples by our (different/changed post conversion) behaviour are duties of everyone in Christ. As is fellowship.

As exemplified by those who do it in countries and areas where it might mean death like where I live today.

"Take up your cross and follow me" indeed.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#829

Post by defrost »

inemesitaffia wrote: post #828
tptacek wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just find this sentiment really kind of funny, given how small the number of people who are passionately committed to it, vs. people who attend folk-group mass. But I'm not here to convert you!

For me it's not just about the in practice Latin suppression and the pretense it's not happening. My reply is primarily about Church growth and the importance of fellowship. Wherever you go, don't imagine this sentiment is American/Western only as many have claimed/alluded. If Christ doesn't change you nothing really has changed. Proselytizing by active action and being examples by our (different/changed post convers…

There are many opinions about proselytism, eg:

  The approach of some recently arrived evangelists has been slammed by some Aboriginal leaders, including Labor senator Pat Dodson.

  "They are a type of virus that has really got no credibility," he said. "If they really understood the gospel then the gospel is about liberation.

  "It's about an accommodation of the diversity and differences that we have in our belief systems."

  He believes the destruction of traditional culture is "an act of bastardry".

  "It's about the lowest act you could perform in trying to indicate to a fellow human being that you have total disdain for anything they represent."
compared to:

  But the born-again Christian converts have defended their beliefs and practices, saying it is their decision to make, and finding God has brought them peace and happiness.
The Christian converts who are setting fire to sacred Aboriginal objects (2019)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-20/the-christian-convert...

Re: Pope Francis has died

#830

Post by ta20240528 »

skissane wrote: post #786
ta20240528 wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the money would be better spent in curing adults from believing in iron-age superstitions.

You can’t “cure” someone who doesn’t want to be “cured” and doesn’t believe there is anything wrong with them. And trying to forcibly “cure” religion may potentially constitute the crime of genocide under international law

Well, at least we agree that religions are iron-age superstitions. :)

And I'm pretty sure I never suggested forcing anyone to do anything.

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