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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#821

Post by mightybyte »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #58
mightybyte wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a common misconception. People say this about NYC, but it's simply not true. I have artist friends who live in NYC and make something like 30k / year. No, you probably won't be able to live in Manhattan with that kind of money but NYC is much bigger than Manhattan and it is still possible to live quite affordable and have access to the city's public transit and not need a car.

It's one thing to survive, it's another to thrive. Sure the wonder of living in NYC for some people is worth the lower comfort of daily life. I hate and avoid cars too and that alone is a major factor in where I choose to live. But if they're living on $30k in NYC, do they share their home with one or more roommates? Could they handle a $500 unexpected expense or would it devastate them? At some age you want to be ab…

In this case I would say very much thriving. This person could easily handle a $5,000 unexpected expense.

When I moved to NYC, I was able to get a very comfortable apartment outside Manhattan but still very convenient to subway lines, and my rent (by far my largest recurring expense) was lower than I had been paying in my first job out of college 7 years earlier. Sure I had a roommate, but 7 years earlier I had was living with my S.O. Why do we automatically assume that a roommate == lower comfort of daily life than living with an SO?

In my case, I was unquestionably more comfortable in my 30s in NYC than in my 20s in the suburbs in a single family home.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#822

Post by rolenthedeep »

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

I'm an American but I lived in Europe for a while, and it hurts me every day that we don't have public transit.

When I was in Europe, my daily routine was get up, grab a donut from the corner shop connected to my flat, walk one block to the subway. If I was lucky, there would be a tram waiting at the other subway station and I could just jump on, or walk the 8 blocks to the office. When I stayed at the office late, the subway was closed but I could always take the night tram the long, long way around.

It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. You buy a ticket, then you can simply walk onto any form of public transit. Subway, tram, busses, even a ferry over the river. And it cost the equivalent of $1.50 to go all the way across one of the largest cities in Europe. It's easy and pleasant, and leaves you free to read a book or work on your laptop if you really want.

Meanwhile in the US, I have to maintain this car, I have to pay something like $30/week in gas and parking. I have to deal with our inadequately maintained roads that damage my car. I also have to deal daily with the incredibly high-stress situation of not letting other drivers fucking kill me. I have at minimum two close calls a week.

I could take the bus here, but it turns a 20 minute commute into 2 hours.

I'd take a subway and a sidewalk 100% of the time. Zero question, no hesitation. It's simply superior in all ways.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#823

Post by throwaway894345 »

hgomersall wrote: post #792
throwaway894345 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived 5 miles away from my downtown office in Chicago. My apartment was 5 minutes from the train and my office was 1 minute on the other side. There were no connections, so this is an ideal public transit situation. It still took 40+ minutes each way versus 20 minutes by car during rush hour or ~10-15 outside of rush hour. This is the third largest US city and one with comparably few major thoroughfares (compared t…

In truth, an environment built for people over cars is better for everyone. Including those that can't drive (which is all children, and many with disabilities) or can't afford to drive. Your case sounds like a perfect situation where a bike with proper cycling infrastructure would be the best option.

Not really. Chicago is pretty damn cold in the winter and hot in the summer and very wet in between. Of course, a Sufficiently Committed Cyclist can and will cope, but that's an unrealistic expectation for the majority of the population. Moreover, my example was an idyllic case for public transit (or as idyllic as it gets in the US). Most places are far less dense than Chicago and traveling by car is easier.

To be clear though, I would like to see more walkable places, and while "people over cars" is hopelessly vague and verging on ideology, I probably agree with some of what people envision when they make this statement. I think it would be great if our urban and semiurban environments had more, smaller shops and more safe infrastructure for bikes and cars. More separation of fast moving car traffic from side streets. Etc. But we have a loooong way to go before bikes or public transit are more practical than cars, and as others have pointed out even the most bike-friendly countries in the world still have high (and growing) rates of car ownership.

Cars are undeniably handy for all but some people in the densest environments, but we still need to take care not to overfit to cars.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#824

Post by mcdonje »

thedrbrian wrote: post #818
mcdonje wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I hate being around so many people packed in a train, airplane, bus I hate being in traffic. On a bus, people are around but you usually don't have to think about them. You can read a book. In traffic, people aren't next to you, but you have to constantly pay attention to them.

> In traffic, people aren't next to you, but you have to constantly pay attention to them. Sounds like someone has never had to take a bus or public transport in a rough area.

That's a bad assumption.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#825

Post by wffurr »

wffurr wrote: post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

One line of thought that hadn't occurred to me until this thread is that The Netherlands car infrastructure is also probably quite good, in keeping with their general high quality of infrastructure all around.

Although as many of the other commenters noted, one reason that driving in some places in the country is doable is that many others choose alternatives, themselves made attractive by high quality infrastructure.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#826

Post by stefs »

iso1631 wrote: post #720
rpastuszak wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _in most cases_ I'm in my mid 30s, lived in 5 different countries (incl. UK, Austria, Poland, Portugal) and use a car perhaps 4 times per month (cab, when I'm feeling lazy). Again, I put the emphasis there for a reason: I'm not saying that we don't need cars _at all_. What I'm saying is that we need _much fewer_ cars and there are many people like me. When I need to take a longer trip, I rent a cab. It costs me a f…

You use the word most. But reality is most adults have cars in all those countries. Cars are expensive, if they didn't need one they wouldn't have one. These include countries with very good public transport. Japan, Switzerland etc. You are very much in the minority.

for many people cars are a luxurious convenience. they also enable bad behavior and come at a terrible cost for everyone, including non-drivers. the reasons for this are manifold, but the problem is, that often there are no practical alternatives because we build our society around car dependency. this creates a dependency spiral: it's hard to quit cars, so people don't (even try), and because everyone has cars, we build infrastructure for it.

it is possible to get out of it in certain areas, usually cities - but even if one manages, they still have to pay the cost: not just the financial burden, the health problems, but also the reduction in safety (especially for kids) and quality of living. vienna has excellent public transport and the car ownership rate is less than 400 per 1000 inhabitants. of those 400, how many are necessary and how many are just out of convenience?

as for my (austrian) country-dwelling extended family: every adult owns their own car, but i'd estimate at least every second car is not strictly necessary.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#827

Post by rpastuszak »

stefs wrote: post #826
iso1631 wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You use the word most. But reality is most adults have cars in all those countries. Cars are expensive, if they didn't need one they wouldn't have one. These include countries with very good public transport. Japan, Switzerland etc. You are very much in the minority.

for many people cars are a luxurious convenience. they also enable bad behavior and come at a terrible cost for everyone, including non-drivers. the reasons for this are manifold, but the problem is, that often there are no practical alternatives because we build our society around car dependency. this creates a dependency spiral: it's hard to quit cars, so people don't (even try), and because everyone has cars, we b…

> the reasons for this are manifold, but the problem is, that often there are no practical alternatives because we build our society around car dependency.

This. I think what got lost in translation in the discussion between iso1631 and me is that we read the phrase "we don't need cars" differently. We need cars because we're making ourselves need them more than we should.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#828

Post by wing-_-nuts »

taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

I see people pulling numbers like this, and I'm not saying I don't believe you, but in my experience, owning a car has been far cheaper than what most estimate.

I bought a 3 year old used car in '09 for $14500 for cash. Since then I've spent a grand total of about $3000 on repair and maintenance. My insurance is about $700 / yr. I spend about another ~ $650 / yr on gas. My total costs have been less than $2500 / yr all in.

You're also not accounting for the value of your time. My 30 minute commute to the office would turn into at least 90m on public transit. That's just one example. It's death by a thousand cuts. At even 1/3rd of hourly rate that most of us make, the cost in lost time is tens of thousands a year.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#829

Post by Earw0rm »

earthling8118 wrote: post #744
Earw0rm wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep.. something about setting out in to the unknown, a battered paper map as your guide, and the combination of surprise and lack of accountability (doesn't perfectly describe what I mean, but I can't find a better word) you'd get in return. It was possible to do that before cars, but mass car ownership & a modern road network made it something the average consumer could do semi-routinely, instead of something that r…

Yet now, to me, public transit is the way to venture out into that unknown. Finding out a cool new place along a route you use, or even trying out a new route and seeing what it gets you. That's been super enjoyable. With cars I only have time to go to things that I already know about. I can't look around well enough while paying attention to the road. If I'm on a bus I can see something cool and hop off and go check…

Same with bikes. You're present in the space in a way you just can't be in a car. Not as quick of course, but enough to cover a meaningful amount of ground across the city while still being able to interact as if you were on foot, more or less. Long distance trains too, for the serendipity of random conversation.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#830

Post by fulafel »

david-gpu wrote: post #84

Some of us don't want to impose the externalities of car ownership on others. The suburbanite who drives a car barely feels these inconveniences, but everybody else does. Cars are dangerous to both pedestrians and cyclists. They make our streets noisy, our air polluted -- even electric cars shed particulates from their tires and their brakes. Cars require extensive amounts of parking, which is ugly dead space which c…

And the biggest one, bringing about and excerbating global heating.
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