Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

engadget.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

821–830 of 1001 posts

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#821

Post by danhor »

kanetw wrote: post #796

As a user, I liked USB-C. Until I had to implement this ridiculously overcomplicated garbage. To be spec-conform, you need at least 1 IC. You can theoretically hack a solution together with some resistors, but it's not spec conform. If you need the high-speed lanes, add a mux/redriver to un-flip it. If you want power delivery (>15W), you need a PD controller and port protection (or a user will fry your data lines whe…

But the two CC line resistors are spec-conform? That's how 5V sinks are supposed to work.

I agree that the whole USB PD stack is way over complicated, I still don't get why the electrical layer and the on-the-wire protocol is so complex. Wouldn't a 3.3 V bidir UART with a CRC at the end do a fine job?

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#822

Post by kanetw »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #816
mmis1000 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? Usb typec wire from 65A(non e-marked wire) to 240A(the latest standardized e-marked wire) uses literally the same plug. Typec is the header but not the protocol. Even China phone vendor's proprietary high speed charging protocol use typec wire. And Intel's tb4 wire also use a type c wire. (the band…

> the bandwidth of tb4 is definitely overkill for every phone ever made on the world for now That depends on what you're doing with it. It would not be very strange to power a VR headset with a phone, which could easily get into that bandwidth range.

I'm considering TBT3/4 for our VR headset's tethered mode. It's a bit of a pain to implement, but the data rate is worth it.

For reference, we need 2-4 lanes of DP HBR3 (depending on compression) + PCIe Gen3x4 for the camera passthrough. TBT3/4 could do it over a single cable.

Feeds into the nightmare that is implementing that entire ecosystem though...

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#823

Post by stale2002 »

chmod600 wrote: post #757
worik wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is not elections. Democracy is the freedom and right of involvement for the stakeholders (among other things) > Democracy is a very blunt tool. Very important when needed, but not good for fine tuning on any reasonable time scale. Very good for fine tuning at human time scales.

Let's say I invent a better connector tomorrow. Nobody other than me really knows if it's better or not. The only way for me to convince people is to get it out there in the market so people can try it. How does that work by voting or any other democratic activity? Others will be unconvinced that it's really better, for the same reason people are skeptical of startup ideas until they become mainstream. So nobody will…

No, I do not believe that a multi trillion dollar company would spend billions of dollars making a major change to their devices, without having any idea of if it will be better or not.

Whatever internal research that these companies made, to make them want to change their multi billion dollar market like this, they can go public with it first.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#824

Post by majewsky »

treesknees wrote: post #320
throwaway92394 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. Hard disagree? Both lightning and USB C were massive improvements in durability compared to Micro USB - I'd argue lightning is still better in that regard, because there's no thin piece inside the phone that can break (did phone repair, and 99% of the time a "broken" iphone port was just stuck lint). USB C is not universally better then then Micro, namely…

Granted this isn't the fault of the connector, but USB-C is certainly a mess. My Nintendo Switch uses USB-C charging, but I can't use my MacBook charger for it. There are different cables, ratings, etc. "make everything USB-C" is asking for confusion. As much as I hate having a different cable for every device, at least when I pick up a (Apple-branded) lightning cable, I know it will work correctly for my iPhone.

> My Nintendo Switch uses USB-C charging, but I can't use my MacBook charger for it.

Then I guess you got one from the first hardware revision. I have a 2018 Switch (second hardware revision as far as I understand), and I have in the past charged it successfully with Apple chargers and Lenovo chargers.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#825

Post by [deleted] »

scarface74 wrote: post #700
DannyBee wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, acutally, you would not have. You would have been stuck with a standard until they changed the standard. Which ... you are in the same boat now? Beyond that, this is the magical free market will fix everything. Despite all evidence to the contrary.

So now we would have to wait years for lawmakers to approve the new standard? Yes, you are very free to choose an Android phone with USB-C if that’s what you want - just like over 65% of the EU does.

[deleted]

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#826

Post by DannyBee »

scarface74 wrote: post #700
DannyBee wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, acutally, you would not have. You would have been stuck with a standard until they changed the standard. Which ... you are in the same boat now? Beyond that, this is the magical free market will fix everything. Despite all evidence to the contrary.

So now we would have to wait years for lawmakers to approve the new standard? Yes, you are very free to choose an Android phone with USB-C if that’s what you want - just like over 65% of the EU does.

No, actually, you wouldn't. As has been explained many times in this thread, that isn't how this kind of regulation works. I do understand that doesn't fit your narrative though.

Rather than making lots of unfounded assertions about what "will" happen, as you keep doing, I would encourage you to actually read the details first.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#827

Post by tleilaxu »

solarkraft wrote: post #657
robonerd wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the standards countries have settled on today, while not all equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to ot…

> Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs Mandatory Tom Scott video about bri'ish power plugs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz_Q :-)

British plugs are the only thing I will ever get nationalistic about. They’re great.

Hurt like a sod to stand on if the prongs are face up though!

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#828

Post by burlesona »

bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

Just imagine if this had been done in the 90s, we’d be stuck on VGA cables for all video and wouldn’t have hi-def TV. Strict regulation causes ossification.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#829

Post by elif »

tephra wrote: post #747
robonerd wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the standards countries have settled on today, while not all equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to ot…

When they started this in 2009 they did want to make micro usb the thing everybody was forced to use. It's only by luck that it took enough time to not get stuck on that...

Contrarily, if they were able to pass that standard quickly, it would stand to reason that they could also pass a USB-C standard quickly.

USB-C becoming standardized for phones will not slow the advancement of USB specs, and if the physical form factor becomes a constraint somehow, they will devise a better one and will standardize it likewise, even if consumer model phones can't ship with them from day 0.

A great example of this is EV charging connectors. The Tesla spec was superior until recently, but because the EU has mandated CCS, as communication/payment has been implemented within the standard, European cars find themselves with a universal plug and a universal charging network that can be unilaterally improved.

Meanwhile in the US we now have 2 charging networks on 2 standards, and no real path to unification.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#830

Post by stevenalowe »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #219
ubermonkey wrote: post #130

It's just really not clear to me that regulators need to be mandating product design. I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice. Twenty years ago, we really DID have a snarl of competing and proprietary phone ports. It was a mess -- Blackberry chargers didn't work with Palm; most WinMo devices had their own…

I'm not sure they are clear what they are solving. The statement says: "European consumers were frustrated long with multiple chargers piling up with every new device" This was solved by companies no longer providing chargers with new devices. When you buy a new phone, you use your existing charger, only buying a new one when you actually need it. If you buy a new iPhone, you get a cable that plugs into a USB-C charg…

Perhaps the “problem” being solved is overcoming the logical resistance to politicians dictating technical decision?
Post reply on HN