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Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

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Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#821
post #7

Worth taking note that in today's climate, you really cannot win when you are in a position to moderate important things that a lot of people use. There is constantly tremendous pressure on you to perform opposing actions, and even making no decision at all will cause you significant mental stress and harassment, regardles of what the issue is. You have to pick who you want to cave to, and to what extent, and no matt…

> "...I wish that we...could have more federated and decentralized platforms"

We did. They were called newsgroups and forums. Reddit is just 1000+ forums stuck together to build audience and make money.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#822
post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What other types of violence are there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_abuse for starters. https://www.who.int/violenceprevention/approach/definition/e... - "This typology distinguishes four modes in which violence may be inflicted: physical; sexual; and psychological attack; and deprivation."

That is a nonstandard and confusing use of the term.

If you think it's confusing, then the best I can say is that you have a _lot_ of reading to catch up on. But here is at least a very abbreviated primer on terminology to help alleviate your confusion https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2652990/

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely agree that it's tricky, and I don't think "Nazis" are the only threat we face today. Anybody whose approach to discourse is to shout down ideas rather than engage with them in good faith or just ignore them and walk away is suspect, IMO. For instance, after 2020 so far I'm definitely at the point where I have serious doubts about the judgment of any Trump supporter or even any Republican voter, but if th…

> Illiberalism seems to be winning, unfortunately. The purity spiral crap on the left is just as upsetting to me as the right's zeal for ignorance, even if I don't think it's doing nearly as much damage right now. That's why I'm terrified and why I want to support freedom of expression. Because if we start classifying ideas as "problematic" and shutting people out, then what is remaining to iron out differences? You…

I mostly don't disagree with you, but I think it's precisely the "illiberal mob[s]" you describe that are most threatening to open discourse. You may not be able to destroy ideas, but you can sure make it difficult for them to flourish.

An example from the left, this time: a year or two ago, an Asian woman (Amelie Wen Zhao is her name, IIRC) wrote a YA novel whose premise involved a) a completely imaginary society based more on an Asian cultural background than anything else, and b) human enslavement. She was attacked by a disgusting social media mob hailing from the YA "community", who used both covert (backchannels/"whispernet") and overt (calling her a racist on Twitter and whipping up a controversy, apparently without actually having read her book) means of attack, justified because (according to them) slavery as a topic/theme in literature is reserved for black authors. These attacks were so violent in their extremism that at the time I swore up and down they were mostly "Russian bots", and I still don't know.

Anyway, I'm not black, nor Asian^[1], but this just seems crazy to me. She did initially delay the publication of her book and could easily have canceled it entirely. This is what I mean by shouting down ideas. I (an amateur novelist) see a lot of forum posts from new writers asking what they can and cannot write about, worried about exactly what happened to Zhao—how many great stories have gone untold because of this insanity?

I think this effect manifests a bit differently on the conservative side—they simply refuse to acknowledge the truth or directly address arguments, and this codes as strength to people who share their ethic. I mean, I think extremists on the left do this too, but I feel like righties are more comfortable with this aspect of their nature, less concerned with virtue signaling and more with active expression of antisocial values (e.g. "rolling coal" on cyclists is funny, ha ha).

So, again, I do think we mostly agree. But how would you suggest we foster an environment where these illiberal mobs don't have power, without censoring/censuring them and their speech somehow? This seems really important, because by their nature these groups seem to be the most interested in gathering and holding on to power over the discourse.

^[1] I capitalize 'Asian' because it's derived from the name of a continent. I doubt I'll ever capitalize 'white', because why would I? and I'm not on board with 'Black' yet either, just from a linguistic point of view. I mean no disrespect by it, and I'd love to hear arguments as to why I should drop that capital B in there, because I'm sure this is going to get me in trouble more and more going forward. But so far (and yes, I've done some reading) I'm not convinced.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#824
post #813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And it's not contradictory to have moral rules in favor of speech and against hate while also allowing the community to punch a nazi in the face for being a nazi. There it is again. Yes, it absolutely is contradictory to proclaim that you support freedom of expression while threatening to punch someone in the face when you disagree with their ideas!

[flagged]

Way to go with your dog whistling. There is a name for people like you also.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#826

From Reddit: https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/rules-reporting/acc... > Marginalized or vulnerable groups include, but are not limited to, groups based on their actual and perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, immigration status, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, pregnancy, or disability. These include victims of a major violent event and their families. > While the rule on ha…

>the rule does not protect groups of people who are in the majority Wow. Like, holy shit wow. So racism and hate is ok with Reddit but only as long as it's directed at "the majority"? What the hell is the "majority"? I'm white. Yet I live in a city where blacks are the majority. Am I still the majority, meaning it's ok to harass me and send me hateful racist insults on Reddit, or would Reddit grant me honorary minori…

Don't think in terms of minorities and majorities. Here's a quick simple list: hating on men, white people, Christians, heterosexuals and conservatives is fine. Everything else is hate speech.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#827
post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they haven't started the violence first You mean physical violence. Physical violence is not the only kind of violence. It seems common for people in the "nazis get to talk too" camp to forget or ignore that.

Not that I think it matters at this point in the discussion, but I did not intend for the scope of my language to be restricted to physical violence.

Sorry, that first sentence should have been a question.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#828
post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> /r/GenderCritical (anti-Trans) This is not a fair portrayal of that sub. Reddit can do what it likes about banning political subs but the banning of r/gendercritical is quite concerning, in my opinion.

Sadly current discourse does equate those two things. Being gender critical ("gender is fake and a tool of patriarchal oppression") is equated with erasing & attacking trans people - politically these two parties do seem to be at odds.

Is discourse regarding trans-gender really necessary though? It seems something a bunch of spoiled elitist bigots would discuss as their way to express distaste for plebs and pretends it's some sort of philosophical debate.

Someone's interpretation of their own sexuality or gender affects no one but themselves. You can discuss it over at /r/philosophy if your intentions are truly analytical.

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#829
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that different communities might have different definitions of "toxicity". I don't think global moderation solves this problem.

>>I believe that different communities might have different definitions of "toxicity" Sure. The problem is that despite the decentralized nature of those communities, they still don't exist in a vacuum. Their various beliefs and behaviors (that the community itself may not consider toxic) inevitably leak out and cause problems for society at large. The incel community, for example, worships Elliott Rodgers, the guy w…

Some leftist communities worship Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot and others, whose actions led to murder of tens of millions of people. Why should we allow any of them to exist?

Re: Reddit shuts down subreddits including r/The_Donald and r/ChapoTrapHouse

#830
post #7

Worth taking note that in today's climate, you really cannot win when you are in a position to moderate important things that a lot of people use. There is constantly tremendous pressure on you to perform opposing actions, and even making no decision at all will cause you significant mental stress and harassment, regardles of what the issue is. You have to pick who you want to cave to, and to what extent, and no matt…

If they had not caved to calls for banning, they would have less problems. The ambitions to ban more subs won't subside anytime soon.

Of course this hands off approach would get you hate. That is price you have to pay. Worth it in my opinion.

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