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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#811
post #717

Now this is funny. I just expressed my opinion on the PyCon incident on Twitter where I wanted SendGrid to take strict action on Adria for abuse of power and also stated that it sets a scary precedent if they turn a blind eye to this. And what happens in like 5 minutes? I get added to long list of people in a Twitter list by this lady @estellevw. The list is called "Priviledged Asshats" (No idea if the spelling is in…

Not funny. Disgusting. Clear-cut harassment.

Estelle Weyl's actions and twitter bio (an emoticon with two middle finger gestures) reveal a lot.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#812
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me uncomfortable: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 "Adria: you should put something in your pants next time .. like a bunch of socks inside one...large...sock. TSA agent faint." So apparently it's ok to be sexual/hostile in someone else's work environment, just not your own?

Your link is (was) 404. Anyway, I frankly don't give a damn whether Adria is a good person or not. People are criticizing her for a specific set of actions that don't seem to be in line with what actually happened. It exposes a lot of sloppy, biased thinking that is the real problem here. :(

I think the majority of criticism is that she escalated things so rapidly to publicly shaming people who didn't deserve it costing a man his job over a silly dick joke that that majority of women wouldn't have batted an eye over.

If she didn't publicly identify him, no one would have cared. If she had simply notified the conference staff, no one would have cared. She took it to extremes, and now the internet is responding in kind.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying "private" is not in fact, well, "private". I grew up as a kid on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, in Eastern Europe, where as it happens walls had ears and "private" was not in fact "private". To see this stuff repeating 25 years later in the free world is scary.

Yes, that's right. A privately run conference asking attendees to behave professionally around other attendees is exactly like the KGB, and is a sure sign that we are sliding downward into totalitarianism.

This is going already too far, but anyway, here it goes. First of all, during the '80s (the time when I grew up) the KGB or the Securitate (the institution that was operating in my country) had already left their "harsh" methods behind, for the most part anyway, but they were instead operating through the peer pressure of those around you (friends, neighbors, strangers on the street, even close relatives).

More exactly, had you by chance happened to listen to Radio Free Europe or made negative comments about the fact that there was no meat for sale in the stores, some of those mentioned above might have just "snitched" you to the powers that be (the Securitate in my country's case). You weren't risking that much, "just" your day job (like one of the guys in this story) and probably also the roof above your kids' heads (now if you don't have a job and you can't pay mortgage/rent you're in the same situation). Like I said, maybe it didn't seem much from the outside, but it was enough.

All this because someone might have overheard you say something that wasn't abiding to the rules of the time. Yes, I do find the power to speak freely a little bit scary.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Actually, what I meant by gross was just the idea of these guys sitting around making innuendo within earshot of a public audience. Not the specific joke, do we even know what it was?" I guess you should read about the issue you are arguing about? "In front of a random audience," I mean come on, it's not like they were on stage. Maybe they were a little inconsiderate, I've said maybe kind of offensive things and the…

AFAICT this is all we got, from a primary source, about the joke: "began making sexual forking jokes" That doesn't tell me what the joke was, it could have been anything. The rest of your comment is hyperbole and straw man. Secret police? Gimme a break, they're walking ads for their company and they agreed to a code of conduct before attending. It's pretty unreasonable to say that you need a second chance to act like…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681

> While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes were made about forking. My friends and I had decided forking someone's repo is a new form of flattery (the highest form being implementation) and we were excited about one of the presenters projects; a friend said "I would fork that guys repo" The sexual context was applied by Adria, and not us.

Straight from a primary source, who all in all seems to be taking this like a champ.

>No. You're totally being bullied by people who expect you to have a little basic courtesy in mixed company.

It was bullying. Plain and simple. She could have informed the conference staff and left it at that. But she didn't, she took it to the internet and bullied them there and someone lost a job. if that's not bullying then i don't know what is.

>they're walking ads for their company and they agreed to a code of conduct before attending.

and so did she, and she broke that code by posting online and publicly shaming them. If he deserved to be fired, she does even more so.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#815
I don't understand something. How can she find a dongle joke in a private chat offensive, while make a phallic joke herself a day later? Sure, she can say that they broke the conference's rules; but people break such rules all the time. Grab an extra pastry? Borrow a colleague's badge? Sneak out some extra food? Who hasn't done that?

This just seems bizarre, and the price paid by the guy who got fired seems to be too much for what was, in essence, a private conversation. I can understand (to some extent) him being excoriated for making such a joke with her; but he was chatting with a buddy, albeit louder than intended.

Sometimes I wish people would just calm down a little, and fight the _real_ problems. And I'll be the first to raise my voice against sexism and discrimination, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#816
Everyone's natural tendency in situations such as this (ones where valid moral principles are in conflict) is to try to look for the easy solution. We want to determine who's right and who's wrong by determining which should take precedence - one's right to privately hold and express (even unwelcome) views, or one's reasonable expectation not to be bombarded with offensive language in a setting where they cannot get away from it. In order to resolve this conflict we try to order, add, and/or refine rules, hoping that we can make a clear distinction between right and wrong that will be accepted by a near consensus. This is an empty exercise and denies the nature of complex matters.

Clearly, the men involved (unknowingly) imposed speech that was deeply offensive and uncomfortable for Adria in a situation where she couldn't get away. She reacted, which she has the right to do, and as a consequence one of the men is paying a price that is obviously too steep. It is clear that the pain caused by Adria's tweet isn't proportional to the harm the initial language caused, so what could have been constructive criticism has spun out of control. So, it's unfair to Adria that she had to hear language she found offensive, but it's also unfair that anyone got fired over a comment that most of us would agree wasn't intended to offend and could've been rectified with a simple apology.

We should acknowledge that no heuristic we can come up with will tell us how to behave in the future in order to avoid this sort of thing. As a person who, embarrassingly, finds toilet humor frequently hilarious and fully supports free speech, I don't see nor want to see it go away. As a rational person I also acknowledge this sort of thing has the potential to offend.

What we should realize is that, if we expect to progress in such matters, we have to let go of the notion that punishment is the tool to move us forward, and engage in conversation instead. The fact that our impulse is so frequently to oversimplify behavior by labeling it "right" or "wrong", seeking to penalize the "wrong" should trouble us. It denies both parties (both the offender and the offended) the opportunity to exhibit empathy, compassion, remorse, and forgiveness, which are at the base of anyone's morality. Thus, the blindness to the complexity of moral dilemmas, and our aversion to the necessary discussions deprive us of our humanity.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#817
An awkward incident handled cowardly by someone, and some random anonymous coward too afraid to put his name where the mouth is steps up in defence? feh

Re: The PyCon Incident

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as "a women in tech" (eeew) I also agree. It's like people don't know the difference between misogyny, which should be unacceptable, and bawdiness, which is a matter of taste. She must be really sheltered. But why did this person's employer fire them? I certainly wouldn't fire anyone for this reason and I would hire someone who made dick jokes for sure.

I'm surprised by the "eeew" attached to being a woman in tech. Is there really that much stigma with saying "I am a woman"? I get that we all just want to be technologists and not "female technologists" but it's a red flag that people use this kind of mitigating speech when sharing their views. It's unfair to assume Adria is "sheltered". In fact she has dealt with a great deal more than most of us, from domestic abus…

> Some truly horrific things are happening to her as a result of this tweet

I don't think these things are quite as horrific as being fired by a spineless lick-spittle employer and not knowing how to provide for your family.

> whose consequences she could have never intended or imagined.

Of course not; she compared herself to a saint (actually), and probably expected others to buy into her delusions.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as "a women in tech" (eeew) I also agree. It's like people don't know the difference between misogyny, which should be unacceptable, and bawdiness, which is a matter of taste. She must be really sheltered. But why did this person's employer fire them? I certainly wouldn't fire anyone for this reason and I would hire someone who made dick jokes for sure.

I'm surprised by the "eeew" attached to being a woman in tech. Is there really that much stigma with saying "I am a woman"? I get that we all just want to be technologists and not "female technologists" but it's a red flag that people use this kind of mitigating speech when sharing their views. It's unfair to assume Adria is "sheltered". In fact she has dealt with a great deal more than most of us, from domestic abus…

I agree that she doesn't deserve some of the vitriol her way. Particularly the misogynistic stuff which is particularly stupid considering the context.

However it's also true that she was the one who chose the nuclear option, and has to live with the consequences of that. If I (as a guy) had behaved as she did, I would expect long threads on HN & Reddit telling me what an asshole I am.

The problem seems to be that her moral compass is so skewed that she believes her reaction was proportionate, and will probably not learn anything from the negative reaction to this.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#820
post #644

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the fact that this happened at a conference for a programming language which was named in celebration of a crude, sometimes immature, comedy group?

No, you are not alone. I'm surprised we made it this far without python → snake → penis being mentioned.

http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2012/12/im-sorry.html
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