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Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

arstechnica.com

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Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#811

Post by samsolomon »

A friend of mine spent two years in Afghanistan—mostly on various fire bases. I remember him telling me about this piece of equipment they used to operate with this $10k controller that everyone hated. One of the bases figured out that they could use an Xbox controller. All the operators preferred using that.

Obviously, it is easier to get a replacement Xbox controller to a US base than a lost submarine—so the circumstances are different. But sometimes off the shelf parts are the best option.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#812

Post by johnwalkr »

bloqs wrote: post #737
dharmab wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They use the Microsoft controllers which have literally 7 digit R&D budgets, and have non-gaming use cases in mind. Not cheap off brand Logitech controllers.

This specific detail seems to be completely amiss for a lot of the old farts takes in this thread. It demonstrably breaks and fails to pair in the damn documentary!

Even worse, it depends on janky key mapping, too.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#813

Post by draw_down »

samsolomon wrote: post #811

A friend of mine spent two years in Afghanistan—mostly on various fire bases. I remember him telling me about this piece of equipment they used to operate with this $10k controller that everyone hated. One of the bases figured out that they could use an Xbox controller. All the operators preferred using that. Obviously, it is easier to get a replacement Xbox controller to a US base than a lost submarine—so the circum…

[dead]

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#814

Post by jaclaz »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #414
proggy wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. If they had encountered a program-destroying but non-catastrophic failure earlier on, it is possible we wouldn't be looking at one of the many horrific outcomes that this incident will likely resolve to. Looking at the accounts reported to date, the OceanGate engineering culture was basically non-…

The lack of emergency beacon is the real WTF. Not even an inflatable buoy. Using a game pad is probably OK. But no emergency method to mark their last location or even surface?

Honest question, how would an inflatable something work at those depths?

4,000 meters should mean 400 bars of pressure from the water, would the thing need to be inflated at more than 400 bar?

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#815

Post by jonathanstrange »

somenameforme wrote: post #774
major4x wrote: post #666

One shall not obsess with the game controller they use, I suppose, in their analysis, failing the controller wouldn't prevent the sub from resurfacing... It is symptomatic, however. The whole Silicon Valley is like that. You have the old guard, NASA, millions for fault analysis, rumors go the C code on some NASA rocket was certified at $1000 per line---human eyeballs reading it... All those start-ups and unicorns, th…

Like the video [1] mentions, they were only improvising on things (including the controller) that would not pose a safety hazard if they failed. The critical components like the capsule were designed alongside NASA and others. People aren't just tossing safety to the wind, but trying to create a better balance. NASA does spend a extreme amount of money on compliance and safety - yet that doesn't prevent them from doi…

This is not true, the maker of this sub compromised substantially on safety and did not have it certified by an independent body like most other builders of deep sea submarines do. In fact, members of the small deep sea submarine community wrote a letter to the company warning them about the safety hazards and the lack of certification. Source: Today's interview with a deep sea exploration submarine commander on German TV (ARD Tagesschau).

In particular, this company used carbon fiber materials that were neither tested nor certified for the intended operational depth, and they also did not do extensive testing like you do when you certify a craft.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#816

Post by johnwalkr »

PUSH_AX wrote: post #645
dharmab wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less than it's off the shelf and more that it's the cheap brand your mom might buy your little brother as a second controller because it's half the price of the first-party one.

It’s cheap because it’s mass produced. If you asked for one you’d be charged for all the engineering, r&d and manufacturing for a one off. It would be a suitably expensive controller, but probably no higher quality. The cheap controller angle is noise in my opinion.

There's a lot of room between one-off and a logitech controller from wal-mart. You can buy a COTS industrial or marine joystick which is tested and has a documented direct interface.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#817

Post by ojosilva »

major4x wrote: post #666

One shall not obsess with the game controller they use, I suppose, in their analysis, failing the controller wouldn't prevent the sub from resurfacing... It is symptomatic, however. The whole Silicon Valley is like that. You have the old guard, NASA, millions for fault analysis, rumors go the C code on some NASA rocket was certified at $1000 per line---human eyeballs reading it... All those start-ups and unicorns, th…

The "whole Silicon Valley" thing is very old guard too. Larry Ellison's first Oracle database would lose customers records randomly and reliability was left for the "future". This submarine, Amazon's Blue Origin and so many others are no exception to this rule.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#818

Post by rightbyte »

heavyset_go wrote: post #797
johnwalkr wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow that's bad. Every new detail looks like something out of an undergrad project. It works to hack something like that together as a first prototype, but even a masters student in a decent lab with decent mentors can make something much more professional. It's like they must have actively prevented anyone with any professional experience whatsoever from seeing it.

It's likely that anyone with experience immediately walked away from the project when they saw what was going on. Who would want the reputation hit, the liabilities and the blood on their hands when things went wrong?

I think they did sue some former employee that was publicly calling out some stress detail about some window. So experienced employees did not only walk away but sounded the alarm on the way out.

It has to be hard for non-technical passagerare to judge these things, like the pre-tour disclaimer contract stating risks. I mean almost every house in CA tells you it will give you cancer.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#819

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #301
xenadu02 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hardly think that is fair. Tesla hasn't re-invented the wheel on life-critical safety systems. They use off the shelf airbags and brakes. Their software on the steering, braking, etc control loops are more or less standard for embedded vehicle systems. The linux PC running the touch screen is not the system controlling the brakes. The failure modes for a vehicle are also a lot simpler than a sub. If the interior st…

> Tesla hasn't re-invented the wheel on life-critical safety systems. Haven't they? They've removed radar from their cars and now the AEB system uses image recognition. Does any other manufacturer do that?

Yet, their AEB system is excellent as per Euro NCAP

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/09/2022-tesla-model-y-perform...

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#820

Post by gambiting »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #815
somenameforme wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the video [1] mentions, they were only improvising on things (including the controller) that would not pose a safety hazard if they failed. The critical components like the capsule were designed alongside NASA and others. People aren't just tossing safety to the wind, but trying to create a better balance. NASA does spend a extreme amount of money on compliance and safety - yet that doesn't prevent them from doi…

This is not true, the maker of this sub compromised substantially on safety and did not have it certified by an independent body like most other builders of deep sea submarines do. In fact, members of the small deep sea submarine community wrote a letter to the company warning them about the safety hazards and the lack of certification. Source: Today's interview with a deep sea exploration submarine commander on Germ…

As it's explained in another comment - the CEO wanted it tested but there isn't a facility anywhere on earth equipped to test it. Perhaps the argument then is that part of the company funding should have been building a custom rig designed for testing this highly custom 5 inch thick carbon fibre shell - but it's not like options to test it were available and were ignored.
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