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Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

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Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#811

Post by monoideism »

dragonwriter wrote: post #667
monoideism wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so what was the group dressed like that in black who were doing it in the video I posted, in the Trump inauguration? That guy is textbook black bloc. There are hundreds of mainstream media videos showing guys dressed like him burning and destroying in prior protests, from Seattle WTO 1999, to Occupy, to more recent protests. I urge HNers to read that article you posted and decide for themselves if it's credible.…

> That guy is textbook black bloc. An agent provocateur will always, except where it is physically impossible such as when no one of the right race is available for a group distinguished by race, outwardly appear as a textbook member of the targeted group. That's kind of central to the idea.

I'm characterizing the black bloc mostly by their tactics. Are you saying this guy blends into the group because he's dressing in black and destroying stuff, just like they do?

I think that we should publish short-sleeve mug photos of all these groups, because both anarchists and white supremacists often have identifying tattoos. Let there be light. The more transparency the better.

But unless I manage to convince myself that, somehow, police agent provocateurs or white supremacists were staging riots and destruction at Trump's inauguration (see video below[1], there are many others from those riots by mainstream media outlets), then my prior is currently that most of the people engaging in these tactics are the same people who have done it for the past 2-3 decades, which I've witnessed in person.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr0i6piW_ak

To clarify, are you suggesting that all this the riots, looting, and assaults are being done by agents provocateurs? Most of them? Some of them? Just that one autozone?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#812

Post by aspenmayer »

jariel wrote: post #797
aspenmayer wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By defenders, I mean those not associated with law enforcement, who defended people or property from harm or damage during protests. You seem to really believe in capital T truth as something that can be known by you and by others including police in a large protest, or riot, or looting, or all of the above. I don’t share this belief in Truth being knowable in the field. That’s why police don’t have unlimited latitud…

I understand the truth can't always be known in a situation - and I fully agree given ambiguity, he police don't have the right to use inappropriate force - however 'looters are looters' - there's no question about the illegality and inappropriateness of that, and we do know that looting is happening. This looting causes a lot of personal damage, people are losing their life savings and livelihoods, and nobody seems…

It's shameful that you think that these protests aren't acceptable outcomes of police brutality. The protests are a direct result of the public not accepting the status quo anymore. The death of a person at the hands of the police started this fire. The police keep it going by aggressive unconstitutional protest containment actions. I don't agree with you at all, and I have laid out the legal and social basis why you are wrong to believe what you do. If I have failed to convince you, I'm sorry. I tried and will keep trying. If you choose not to agree with my interpretation, that's fine too.

Protest and looting are shades of the same idea. If you don't care about us taking up space in your streets, maybe you may care about being deprived of your corporate assets. Corporations aren't people. People are people. If harming corporations leads to an increase in human rights, that is a net gain for society. To question whether the cost is too high like you do shows you care more for property, capital, and the people who wield these asset classes, than you do for those who have cause to protest. Just because you don't share their cause célèbre does not invalidate it.

Reasonable people can disagree. It's impossible to be reasonable or disagree if you're killing someone or being killed. The police actions up to this point have been unreasonable, and so the response of the public is currently outside the scope of actions that can have a reasonableness standard applied to them. Protest is inherently justified by the Constitution. The response to police brutality and lack of internal reform proves the police think they are right to kill people and don't need to change. That's why the protests continue. To stop protesting now would be to negotiate with terrorists. The protests must continue as long and until the police come to the table with protesters and stakeholders, and they all negotiate a solution.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#813

Post by dbsmith83 »

JamesBarney wrote: post #784
dbsmith83 wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrible analogies. Those are mostly planned things which give people opportunity to plan for.

Does it matter if it's planned? If you have a medical condition and you need to get to a hospital it doesn't matter whether you had a week's notice or a days notice because the need to get to a hospital is unplanned.

Another assumption that is just completely untrue. Some people have important yet routine things that are crucial to their health.

And planning does matter, because when events are planned, proper detours can be set up with signage.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#814

Post by dbsmith83 »

jascii wrote: post #790
dbsmith83 wrote: post #771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just being obtuse now. It's a shame you don't value ordinary people's lives. It's a very privileged position to be in.

The simple fact is that no people have been killed due to a protest blocking the road. People have been killed by police violence. Theoretical grandstanding over an unlikely hypothetical scenario to condemn protesters is being obtuse.

Oh really, how do you know this? Given the scale of protests over time, I bet it is likely someone has. And if someone hasn't already, someone eventually will. Saying something has never happened so therefore it won't happen is ridiculous.

This is not theoretical grandstanding, this is recognizing a potential threat.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#815

Post by dbsmith83 »

JamesBarney wrote: post #786
dbsmith83 wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a terrible analogy. The key difference is that parades, motorcades, and road construction are planned events. Protesters who unexpectedly stop traffic do not give people opportunity to plan. side comment: Loving the downvotes for a legitimate point. When did hacker news turn into reddit?

If you need to get to a hospital they all slow you down, doesn't matter how planned the event is.

detours

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#816

Post by TeaDrunk »

r_c_a_d wrote: post #720
TeaDrunk wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black leadership has been bombed, assassinated, and jailed. Their neighborhoods are targeted for predatory financial extraction and are disproportionately exposed to environmental hazards like waste processing plants, dumps, etc. The Black Panther party had significant leadership and unification, social programs like food, educational programs, etc. They were killed. Bombed in fact. Prominent leaders were shot in the…

It will take a long time, generations, to fix this. I remember the 1981 race riots in London. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Brixton_riot There was a public inquiry afterwards that led to the creation of a Police Complaints Commission. But that was largely ineffective for at least 20 years afterwards. Ultimately I think integration and education are the only solution. My parents didn't meet a non-white person unt…

Integration has been resisted with violence- see busing.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#817

Post by deanCommie »

mythrwy wrote: post #454
deanCommie wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope, that both sides, the protesters and police force will find a way, to exit that spiral of violence. But right now it looks like this won't happen. It's a shame. Is it a shame? The only way this de-escalates is if the police violently repress the protests so hard that dissent is silenced. Which is what Trump wants. Which will only push the country further into authoritarianism. And the police have shown thems…

Violent revolution (attempted anyway) probably will produce societal change. It just won't be the kind you are hoping for.

What about the American revolution?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#818

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

oh_sigh wrote: post #803
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charming. Cops don’t need to stomp on peoples necks till they asphyxiate to feel safe at work.

I'm not sure who exactly you think is arguing that point.

Oh, sorry, perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant when you said:

> You understand why US cops are so heavy handed though, right?

???

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#819

Post by giardini »

jascii wrote: post #788
giardini wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

jascii says> "The way you are firing yourself up to commit homicide over a hypothetical situation..." He's isn't "firing [himself] up.." as you say, he's thinking out what could possibly happen and considering what his options are. If you wait until you're in such a situation (people are breaking into your car and threatening to harm the occupants) you simply don't have sufficient time to think out those options - yo…

I am well aware of the benefits of visualisation which is why this is so disturbing. Driving a car into a crowd is not self-defense, it is mass homicide and mentally training yourself to make that a "valid option" can be extremely dangerous.

jcims clearly stated>"I'll wait it out, but if people start attacking my car and breaking windows, i'm hitting the gas till i see daylight."jcims didn't say that he would be "Driving a car into a crowd..." as you state.

Clearly, if rioters begin beating a car and breaking windows the driver has the option of surviving by driving to preserve life, limb and property.

jascii says>"mentally training yourself to make that a "valid option" can be extremely dangerous."Have you ever been surrounded by a mob or mobs while driving a vehicle? We're discussing it here, so you've now at least considered (and possibly once experienced) such a situation: otherwise how could you claim that such an option can be, as you state, "extremely dangerous"?

Tell us your valuable experiences, please.

BTW there's plenty on this topic previously on the innertubes:

https://urbansurvivalsite.com/caught-riot-driving/

https://www.quora.com/What-are-my-legal-options-if-my-car-is...

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#820

Post by jariel »

aspenmayer wrote: post #689
kortilla wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a large enough crowd to block an intersection does not mean your views are valid enough to be supported by everyone else. Would you really advocate joining KKK protests just because they were large?

White supremacists are actively trying to fly under the radar in open-carry protests right now.[1] There’s a lot of weird noise in that area online and off. So just because white supremacists and their sympathizers get to protest, that doesn’t mean other people get to protest? Sounds like separate but equal to me.[2] Not for me or mine. This was your hypothetical, but it’s actually reality. Protest is protest. It’s f…

" It’s for the whole society to decide what are valid forms of it, at every level."

That's just lawlessness.

There's not way to make up the rules as we go along, using the 'winds of the day' and what's happening on the news to determine what's a legit protest and what is not.

We do decide collectively what's what by using laws and policies. We make those, we make them clear, and then we apply them.

It seems as though you can't block traffic at a busy intersection 'because' - and so whatever the protest is today, it's not right.

We can't make up as we go along, that's chaos.

People can protest in parks, in front of city hall etc. - that works, it's peaceful and within civil framework.

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