It's called being spoon fed versus being responsible.
Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
811–820 of 848 posts
Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#812Earlier quoted context omitted.
> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…
Or just fix the incredibly high fees. In many European countries (not the UK) public education is incredibly affordable, in some like Germany and Denmark even free. It's a choice to make fees so high, it's not really necessary for the product. What do US universities spend their money on? Admin, sport stadiums and famous professors that then barely teach because what makes them famous is their research. You'd go chea…
I understood that countries with 'free' education, had a high bar for entry. So not really open to the public; open to the top 10% or whatever.
If you pay (in the USA) you can get in somewhere, guaranteed. Because there's a spectrum of institutions, so you can find a place that will take you where you are educationwise, and pull you up from there. Some start at IT college, move to a Community College, then a State or private one, then graduate. Cost-effective and you ultimately get to advertise the place you ended at.
Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#813Earlier quoted context omitted.
> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…
Colleges should be shaking in their boots for the next generation, because there's going to be a whole generation of parents that suffered terrible college debt they couldn't pay off and will likely be telling their children it's just not worth it (as opposed to the previous generation that had cheap college and a great economy and pressured all their children to go for that 'guaranteed better life'). I made it throu…
My career has been helped tremendously with the contacts I got in college (read: friends, classmates, professors). Some value in that.
I suppose going the private route would just result in different contacts. I also benefit from colleagues from previous employment.
Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#814Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I never let schooling get in the way of my education." The problem with your view is you assume the only way to get educated is via academia. There is a lot of education when you become a mechanic, an electrician, a factory worker, a firefighter, etc. That is not academic. You learn on the job. There are also many certification courses for these fields that run outside of traditional college system. I believe in fre…
> There is a lot of education when you become a mechanic, an electrician, a factory worker, a firefighter, etc. That is not academic. You learn on the job. This is true for every profession. Is there any job where you pop out of school ready to perform like an expert? Lawyers, doctors, scientists, etc. — all these folks learn to do their jobs on the job, despite their years or decades of training in academia. > The c…
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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#815Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here’s a lifehack: Attend college in Europe then move to USA for that high paying job. Works really well. Cheap to free education, better skills because you’re not just living the college life and professors have little incentive to make it easy. It’s great. Hell you don’t even have to fully graduate to get most of the benefit.
If you're never going to pay European taxes, that seems like an unethical life hack. And if enough people actually do this, I wouldn't be surprised if European universities start raising their foreign students tuition.
Some countries like Germany (which generally costs 500 Euro/semester, except in 1 state) give you an 18(?) month visa post-graduation to allow you to get a job in Germany. This particular visa actually puts you on the same hiring level (at least theoretically) as German citizens.
Of course, knowing German fluently would be critical to be "on the same level" as German citizens.
So, most likely you are not going to be evading the taxes, at least in places like Germany. It is almost always better to get your first job post-graduation in Germany if you have a German diploma anyways.
Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#816Earlier quoted context omitted.
Germany for example offers free education for Americans/foreigners. I remember this was discussed a while back on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9308261
Some states already require foreign students to pay 500€ each semester and others will follow. On top of that you will have to guarantee that you can support your life in Germany, meaning you are not eligible for any kind of government support if things get tough or you lose your job. Going there thinking everything will be provided is wrong and the COVID-19 crisis will get a lot of foreign students into deep trouble…
A lot of EU countries are not issuing standard/typical/normal visas at all. You can most likely forget getting a student visa altogether. At this point, you cannot even legally enter the EU (Schengen zone + more) without being an EU citizen or resident, unless you are a third-national humanitarian aid worker or diplomat, basically.
Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#817Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would personally consider the education I received in UC Berkeley when I was there studying CS, excellent. It was very challenging (in a way, it's impossible to exaggerate this), I found tons of help from TAs, my peers, professors were experts in their fields, labs were very useful to make me experience "real life" stuff and discussions were very useful to learn "theory" side of things, both of these occurring in t…
That sounds like masochism. I went to a decent public school, worked hard sometimes, partied whenever, and yet I work for the same kind of company as you. A good 25% of my class ended up the same way. If your goal is to make money, then I don't think hard work matters nearly as much as figuring out the social aspect of how to fit in with working professionals.
That's true. My point was college isn't necessarily 4 years of chilling and partying for everyone, which is weirdly how everyone I talk about seems to frame this debate. Some of my elders don't even believe college wasn't 7/24 frat parties, ideological indoctrination and protesting.
EDIT: Also, to be clear, masochism was part of the problem. In college I thought I wanted to be a professor so I was working hard for grad school so I can get into a good PhD program. I was also doing a lot of research. Then I realized I liked being an engineer, and I don't have money to go to PhD. I DEFINITELY didn't need a near 4.0 GPA and taking ALL the hardest CS/engineering/math classes to get a six figures job.
Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#818Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…
The topics people learn in US colleges are about identity politics, affirmative action and safe spaces. Since those skills are hard to monetize outside of politics and academic beaurocracy, the same people have a hard time earning their living.
Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#819Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be clear, I don't think college should be paid for with loans. I agree with you that we shouldn't be enslaving people. But I also don't think allowing these loans to be discharged in bankruptcy will solve anything (and will arguably make things worse) without systemic changes in the way college is paid for.
It will force "the system" to come up with some other way to pay for tuition. What do you think about Income Share Agreements? https://www.thesimpledollar.com/loans/student/income-share-a...
I fail to see how an ISA is better than an unforgivable loan, and to be honest, this seems a lot more like indentured servitude/wage slavery without the pretense of a loan. If the investor (Purdue in the article) has to step in and say we won't make more than 2.5x our investment on you, you know the student is being taken advantage of. The problem is that the ISA model is still bound to the private market by virtue of the fact that the investors are private and not public entities. The carrots and sticks that are in place are not there to benefit the student.
I wonder how society would react by making student loans forgivable. Would banks stop giving out loans because there is no collateral? Or would they require a cosigner to rope in an adult with collateral to lose? Would schools get cheaper as a result of people not being able to afford the already high tuition, would they become a status symbol for the mid-upper class who can afford it? It is definitely an interesting thought experiment.
Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education
#820Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…
And it's different for me. I came a poor household in India and guess what? I couldn't even afford a good trade school even if I really wanted to.
Most of my education was in government school and later I cleared IIT and studied there for nearly free.
After completion education, I got offer from foreign countries and traveled whole world just by bouncing from one company to another.
Yea, I'd have loved to stay near my family and become a machinist but my family couldn't even afford a "drill press".
Meanwhile, at i had access to do many equipments that I didn't even know about for free at my institute.