Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#501

Post by SkyBelow » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:42 PM UTC

jefftk wrote: post #440

gwd wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

> If it's a bad bet for the bank, it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That doesn't follow: you could graduate, get your degree, and declare bankruptcy. You're fine, your loan is gone, and the bank regrets their investment.

Back when the loans could be discharged this was not at all common, so why would it be so now?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#502

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

gvjddbnvdrbv wrote: post #444

WalterBright wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that humanities majors tend to believe in socialism does not burnish their critical reading skills and resistance to propaganda. The reality of the history of socialism is one of failure. And yes, I do understand that everyone thinks that those who disagree with them are ill-informed and susceptible to propaganda, and those who prefer socialism will think that of me :-)

Socialism in the form of social democracy has built some very very nice countries here in Scandinavian.

[deleted]

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#503

Post by PeterisP » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

whymauri wrote: post #168

jcranmer wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My suspicion is that there is a huge difference between graduating as a humanities major in a recession vs boom. Drop the "humanities major"--it's true even for STEM majors as well. There's a pretty consistent career track from college to junior to senior positions, and if you fall off that track, it is quite hard to get back in again. There are very few majors for which demand is high enough to let you get back on…

CS major graduating in June from a top 3 institution, here. Last fall, my application-to-callback rate was like 80-90+%. I had to stop applying to jobs to make my workload and interviewing manageable. My current rate is like 15-20% after I lost my full-time job. About 10% in software and engineering vs. 30% in finance.

Most of STEM degrees are not similar to CS regarding career prospects. Masters in chemistry or mathematics don't have that many entry level jobs with attractive salaries eagerly waiting for fresh grads.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#504

Post by yowlingcat » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:44 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #113

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

That colleges still get to win when their students graduate into economic destitution is a moral hazard of American society that we will inevitably look back upon as a great stain on history. I think a lot of people agree there. While I don't argue it would solve the entirety of the problem, I think a great first step would be to change the financial product itself. The code academy's tuition deferment until employment model seems a lot more sane than what we currently have. If every educational institution had to take this approach, would we still see the same kind of bureaucratic overreach, feudal approach to tenure, and debt slavery that we currently see? I'd love to know.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#505

Post by et-al » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:44 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #203

jedberg wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

Here’s a lifehack: Attend college in Europe then move to USA for that high paying job. Works really well. Cheap to free education, better skills because you’re not just living the college life and professors have little incentive to make it easy. It’s great. Hell you don’t even have to fully graduate to get most of the benefit.

If you're never going to pay European taxes, that seems like an unethical life hack. And if enough people actually do this, I wouldn't be surprised if European universities start raising their foreign students tuition.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#506

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:44 PM UTC

irishcoffee wrote: post #484

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in another movie Tony Stark built an arc reactor in a cave with a box of scraps.

Yes, a comic book hero did comic book hero things in a comic book hero movie. Not sure what point you think you're making.

Well, that just because it's in a movie doesn't mean it's true.

Few people would get to any sort of level of understanding of that sort of material just by reading it, and just because a movie genius can do it doesn't mean it's easy.

If we replaced all those examples with engineering textbooks, wouldn't it be the exact same, if it not, why? We learn he's an untrained math prodigy later on in the movie, so he doesn't need any education. It would appear a STEM education is a waste as well.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#507

Post by chongli » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

spaced-out wrote: post #443

jedberg wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes exactly. The small schools would just disappear, and the big names would keep going.

So you're saying small schools would choose to close rather than lower their prices and stay open?

It’s not really a choice. Those schools tend to have very expensive, high maintenance campuses. I suppose they could also let all the buildings deteriorate but then they risk being closed against their well due to safety concerns.

In truth, the costs of these schools results from a ratchet effect. Wealthy donors buy the fancy buildings which the schools are then stuck maintaining. It’s a classic case of a white elephant [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#508

Post by unexpected » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #279

panzagl wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are not enough upper class to go to all of the schools currently operating- colleges would have to lower prices or disappear.

Yes exactly. The small schools would just disappear, and the big names would keep going.

I disagree a bit. The big name schools can get away with charging their current prices, but small schools would radically re-think. No more football stadiums, fancy dorms, etc. People still need to get educated. The rest of the world has universities with sensible pricing - only the US is an anomaly.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#509

Post by aroundtown » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

I thought getting a degree in computer science was my ticket out of poverty and the lower class blue-collar work that has perpetuated my family for generations.

Boy was I wrong.

Opportunity and pure luck have to be at your back for the kind of generational change I sought. End up on the wrong side of either one of those and you too might not end up where you expect.

Nowadays, I wish I had learned a trade. Sure the work is hard, but those skills are always in demand. Houses will always need electrical or plumbing, but not everybody needs someone who can design an emulator or make an interpreter.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#510

Post by jedberg » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #473

jedberg wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is that bad? It depends on your point of view. Should college be a trade school or should it stick to it's roots of broadening one's horizons? I found my philosophy classes quite enlightening. They were required for my degree in CogSci. If my school didn't have a philosophy major, it wouldn't have a philosophy department, and I would never have had those classes. Also, there are some majors that lead to professiona…

Philosophy is great, but it's not something you need to go into debt for. Did you learn anything in those classes that you couldn't have learned on your own via books and free lectures on YouTube, etc?

I think you're missing the point of college.

Anything you learn in college can be learned from a book or YouTube. The value of college is the curation the professor provides and the people you are doing it with.