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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#811

Post by droopybuns »

NiceGuy_Ty wrote: post #792
droopybuns wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This section struck out to me too. what I realized is that I am older, more world wary and far more cynical about anyone looking out for me than your average young millennial. I think the dividing line is in that cynicism. I have never felt like anyone looked out for me. "How do I prove myself to people one way or another?" I have stopped trying to prove myself. I do what I think is right and am very wary of external…

> Stop talking about white men like we've never experienced pain. What kind of discourse are you referring to? I hate that there's this notion that trying to hire talented people from underrepresented communities somehow requires oppressing white people.

I am not making the argument you are describing.

With respect to messaging tone, there are feminists and social justice people who end up being so tone deaf that they alienate otherwise sympathetic people.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#812

Post by weberc2 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #410
rpiguy wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore never said that women were worse engineers or that biology makes them worse engineers. There was no implied inferiority. It is largely the PC crowd who read implied-inferiority into any study of biological differences between male and female. If you look carefully at some of the comments from female Googlers after the memo was leaked, they talk about fears of being perceived as less capable based on their biol…

Damore never said that women were worse engineers You're just saying "He couched the point well-enough", he didn't say they were worse engineers, he just said they weren't naturally inclined to work with things. Sure that doesn't literally state that women as worse, it just casts an equivalent shadow on a woman wanting to be an engineer.

He didn't imply that either. Are there no criticisms that don't depend on mischaracterizations? He's citing a study of gender differences which purportedly shows gender differences which might explain part of the gap. The point is that the data don't unanimously support the discrimination hypothesis and it might merit looking at other hypotheses.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#813

Post by hellopier »

izacus wrote: post #617
mpweiher wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that CS isn't a science, it's engineering. And it tracked down to the level of other engineering fields. http://news.janegoodall.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/perce... So the mystery is not why it went down, it was why it was higher initially.

Hmm, Computer Science is most definetly a science (which shares quite a bit with maths as expected). A lot of algorithms and data structures you use under the hood when doing engineering were born as a paper in academic CS sphere. Of course, most CS graduates don't do science, but actual engineering work. That doesn't make CS any less of a science though, it just means that most people employed in private companies d…

And thus employment of CS graduates should be compared with employment of Engineering graduates, except in the case of Academia, where it ought to be compared with other sciences.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#814

Post by thetruthseeker1 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #712
thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #711

I for one believe James Damore wasn't fired for his views on women, but Google fired him because he was a PR problem and that could affect their business/financial bottom line. Google probably understands the user base and decided they would rather not displease women (bigger group) compared to conservatives. My analysis adds up to what James Damore had to say as to what happened in a WSJ article. He said his memo di…

If thst were true, why didn't google negotiate a gag agreement (using a few million $$$, cheap for them) with Damore to make this just go away? The fact that they didn't take the easy way out makes me think that they didn't fire him for business reasons.

But that wouldn't appease the public who wanted him fired? If the public( let's say women's group) aren't appeased and they boycott google, it affects google ?

It is possible that google gave an offer to James D to be silent along with the pink slip, which he might have turned down?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#815

Post by weberc2 »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #527
rpiguy wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore never said that women were worse engineers or that biology makes them worse engineers. There was no implied inferiority. It is largely the PC crowd who read implied-inferiority into any study of biological differences between male and female. If you look carefully at some of the comments from female Googlers after the memo was leaked, they talk about fears of being perceived as less capable based on their biol…

> It is largely the PC crowd who read implied-inferiority into any study of biological differences between male and female. He mentions aptitude right here, "I'm simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership." He also mentions it in a…

That doesn't imply inferiority. There are a lot of characteristics in which men exhibit more variance than women, but the average for both genders is the same. It might just mean there are more men at the top and bottom, not that women are inferior.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#816

Post by sonabinu »

Thank you for posting this! Since that memo came out, I've asked myself several times - am I not woman enough because I love math and programming. I didn't know I would love either till I did a bit of deliberate slogging on both when I changed careers. Math, I deliberately learnt in high school simply because I no longer wanted to confused. Computing I learnt the slow hard way, again deliberately. But once I got a hang of it, it's been my passion!!!

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#817

Post by saganus »

ovao wrote: post #490
saganus wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but more and more it seems that if you are not 100% unequivocally clear, someone will attack you as if you agreed with a polemical point. I think this is in part due to the "chilling effect". I've been there myself. I have to be super clear that I don't endorse nor necessarily agree with some point lest I find myself being equated with the worst of the worst...regardless if I agree or not with said point.…

That's it in a nutshell, yes. And I agree that it's sad, but it's something I only tend to feel compelled to do on very divisive political topics, so it's not too bad, really.

Agreed that it's not too bad because as you say, only a few topics warrant such a reaction.

Unfortunately... it seems like, as time passes by, more and more subjects require such careful treatment. I absolutely hate it...

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#818

Post by studentrob »

jules wrote: post #787
unityByFreedom wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He may actually have referenced race. He brings up IQ here, "the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ and sex differences)" IQ has no relevance to a discussion on gender gaps, so, why mention it? The quote's context is politics. In that context, IQ has recently been used in discussions over racial differences [2]. It begs the question, is Damore being honest about his…

You are projecting your own biases onto that statement.

Looks like the reasoning came from the Quora article. Do you have another explanation?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#819

Post by seanmcdirmid »

thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #814
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If thst were true, why didn't google negotiate a gag agreement (using a few million $$$, cheap for them) with Damore to make this just go away? The fact that they didn't take the easy way out makes me think that they didn't fire him for business reasons.

But that wouldn't appease the public who wanted him fired? If the public( let's say women's group) aren't appeased and they boycott google, it affects google ? It is possible that google gave an offer to James D to be silent along with the pink slip, which he might have turned down?

There is a lot of anti-SJW sentiment these days that I'm sure even Google doesn't really want to tap into...the public is more broadly defined than one side of the story. Also, the longer this story goes on, the left isn't really appeased and the right grows angrier, very much a lose-lose situation for google right now.

The guy might have turned down a gag agreement, maybe they just didn't offer enough money? A non-disparagement ageement would also be on the table just for severence, but Google seems to have opted out of that already (you can't talk about the guy and expect that him not to talk about you).

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#820

Post by PrimHelios »

zaroth wrote: post #797
foobar_femme wrote: post #791

As a longtime female engineer at fintech startups, there was absolutely nothing new in Damore's memo. The only thing that gave these tired arguments any cachet at all was Google's name. And I really wish Google hadn't fired Damore. Special projects exists?! For years I have worked with and continue to work with guys who think just like this. In fact, thanks to Twitter, I now know all of my followers who also follow D…

Everything you said that's wrong with the interactions you have with male engineers, I'm not sure that James Damore would disagree with any of it, or claim that it doesn't happen, or say that we shouldn't be trying hard to change it. What James argued is that the efforts Google is making and the way they are doing it are in some ways contributing to and making all of those bad experiences you listed worse .

James also argued that women are biologically inferior for STEM fields, which is objectively and demonstrably incorrect. With that, I think he'd disagree with absolutely all of it. He clearly has a confirmation bias, and is actively cherry picking articles (from fucking Wikipedia I might add) and misrepresenting their contents to make women seem inferior.
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