EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#801

Post by oaiey » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:35 AM UTC

glogla wrote: post #426

buscoquadnary wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors. Further it seems more like a moat to keep anyone else from getting as big as these "digital gatekeepers" are as suddenly when you get to a certain size you have an enormous expense. If these companies really are that large that they have to get special laws for them i…

> It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors. This is completely normal for laws. Your kitchen at home doesn't have to follow the same rules as restaurant kitchen, for example. You as a driver of your personal car don't have to go through the same process and registration as truck drivers do. Small stalls selli…

This is even true for something like medical devices. The FDA is really soft with startups and a pain in the ass once you grew some years.

And it makes sense. Let the small business experiment a bit, give them a bit leeway and once they grew to a certain size, expect that they think about the bigger picture. Which our dear monopolists only do in their favor.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#802

Post by oaiey » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:38 AM UTC

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #610

Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

I think six months is a pretty unreasonable time frame for Apple. While the security concerns around this sort of thing are often overblown, Apple will need to rework their security model for the iPhone. If there is an API surface between the OS and the App Store, they may need to rework it since it's not been designed with third party stores in mind.

They will negotiate a proper time frame. It will take years till we see the benefits. The EU will charge them a smaller fine and give them some time with that. Not their first rodeo on both sides.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#803

Post by megous » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:40 AM UTC

All the panic in this thread about allowing apps without Apple review would make one believe iOS has no technical app security/isolation/restriction mechanisms.

These will just have to become an even more of a first class citizen in the new world order. And will have to become even more trustworthy in the new much more adversarial ecosystem. :)

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#804

Post by simion314 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:41 AM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #213

turbinerneiter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. This however isn't a reason for the rest of the world to accept this. And since the power in the market is highly concentrated and all of it is moving more and more in this direction, regulation enforces these alternative options now. All this does is regulate the power the provider of a product has over their customer. This does not ruin the walled garden for the…

That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. I agree in principle, but I worry that we end up in the situation where if you need to use a particular app, you can only get it from a third-party store that you don't trust. (Something gross like Facebook starting an app store.) Or course, this is mostly a result of Apple being greedy. If they had acted like a good steward of the platform rather than trying to ex…

>I agree in principle, but I worry that we end up in the situation where if you need to use a particular app, you can only get it from a third-party store that you don't trust. (Something gross like Facebook starting an app store.)

You have Android as a real world experiment, go ask an Android users to search the Facebook Messenger app on Google Play store and you will see it is there, FB did not forced Android users to install the app by side loading it and FB did not created their own app store for their apps.

What could happen though is you would get fair prices, say an app/Game would be 30% cheaper if you buy it directly from the developer and not from an intermediary, though I did not see this happening on PC (getting a better deal if I buy directly, I am wondering what causes this)

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#805

Post by oaiey » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:45 AM UTC

parasense wrote: post #183

Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

> Fines are up to 10% of global revenue for the first offense, and 20% for repeat offenses. For Alphabet (Google) the revenue distribution from 2015 to 2021 was approximately 33% for all of Europe, Middle-east, and Africa. It's unclear to me the actual European numbers since they are combined EMEA. For Apple in 2021 the revenue was approximately 23% for Europe (no middle-east or Africa). For Facebook in 2021 the reve…

The EU regulations are often quickly adopted in other market places in similar fashions. Leaving the EU might be a calculation worth, but leaving the rest of the world is often prohibitive.

Do not forget here: These are countries which existed hundred of years before FAANG and will exist hundreds of years after FAANG. They have to protect themselves as a society but also as a constitutional body. If you let the monopolies go their way, their own constitutional existence is in doubt (example: these companies have already gigantic control on aspects which are governed by law hate speech, nudity, etc or are normative in the society). Long rambling, short reply: Other countries will quickly adopt these laws to keep long-term relevant.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#806

Post by emsy » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:52 AM UTC

drexlspivey wrote: post #737

turbinerneiter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. This however isn't a reason for the rest of the world to accept this. And since the power in the market is highly concentrated and all of it is moving more and more in this direction, regulation enforces these alternative options now. All this does is regulate the power the provider of a product has over their customer. This does not ruin the walled garden for the…

Just wait till Facebook forces you to download their app from the alternative app store with all their tracking crap up to 11

You are forced to download the Facebook app?

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#807

Post by idle_zealot » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:55 AM UTC

neodypsis wrote: post #678

Bilal_io wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What malware? I've been using Android for over 10 years now. I've never had an issue personally. But I consider myself tech savvy and I don't install apps from untrusted sources. Also, iOS had multiple 0-days in the past. So you don't need to give users freedom over their paid for devices for them to be compromised.

Sure, iOS has had 0-days in the past. Which major OS/Hypervisor hasn't? The point is that Android is more susceptible to "lower hanging fruit" attacks, such as in the examples below. For example: https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/camscanner-malicious-android-... Very recent example: https://www.techradar.com/in/news/more-brutal-malware-laden-...

Your Android malware examples don't do much as an argument against sideloading. They both describe malware on Google's "curated" app store.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#808

Post by arlort » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:07 AM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #545

parasense wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fines are up to 10% of global revenue for the first offense, and 20% for repeat offenses. For Alphabet (Google) the revenue distribution from 2015 to 2021 was approximately 33% for all of Europe, Middle-east, and Africa. It's unclear to me the actual European numbers since they are combined EMEA. For Apple in 2021 the revenue was approximately 23% for Europe (no middle-east or Africa). For Facebook in 2021 the reve…

What would the money even be used for? Why does the government have to profit from enforcing this. I’d be fine if we take the money and burn it but it’s not gonna be that is it it’s gonna be we take the money and funnel it into organizations that politicians children happen to be on the boards of.

IIRC fines by EU agencies go into the EU budget reducing the member states contributions for the next year

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#809

Post by wnkrshm » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:07 AM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #446

visarga wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The App Store is a garbage dump anyway. There are few apps you can pay upfront, the rest are ad-infested or require you to repeatedly do in app purchases to keep using them, to the point that I can't find games for my kids.

You can run DNS based ad blockers on iOS. It’s just a setting you change, mine is called adguard. Still get YouTube ads, but most others are blocked.

But in theory, someone controlling a walled garden could do the same that youtube does with any kind of content. If the app doesn't work in a transparent manner anymore, you can just shoehorn unblockable ads into it.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#810

Post by alaric410 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:13 AM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #178

bloppe wrote: post #81

It blows my mind how many people have bought into Apple's position on this. No, Apple restricting your freedom does not afford you greater security. You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. If you're not confident in your ability to tell shady from legit, just stick to the App Store. Don't demand that Apple treat the rest of us like children just because that's how you would like to be treated.

> You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. For some reason every Linux user assumes everyone is as smart as they are and anyone who doesn't take the time to learn whatever esoteric config file to manage their DE is a child that can't tell left from right. Somehow the decade of directed scams and proliferation of malware and spyware isn't a problem and it's the developers "right" to be able to turn…

I see a lot of Apple fans make unsubstantiated claims that Apple's restrictions on its ecosystem is effective in stopping spam, malware, scams, etc... I have yet to see any data to back this up.