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Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

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Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#801

Post by rocqua »

saagarjha wrote: post #780
throwaway373438 wrote: post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you manage to find a vulnerability in this system, I don't think I even mind, " Taking a quick photo doesn't illuminate the LED for long enough for a human to reliably notice. "because you've also broken physics " Or merely recognized the role of the human element. A shame, Apple was once good at this.

Newer Macs will also require the light to come on for a lot least a few seconds when the camera activates.

That sounds like the led is controlled by logic, instead of being in the power loop.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#802

Post by pfranz »

Wingman4l7 wrote: post #775
pfranz wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bit overstating that it destroys the secondhand market. I still see non-working Macs on ebay for hundreds of dollars. The resale value of a well-maintained Mac continues to be much higher than any other brand. These kinds of changes have also made great strides in reducing the incentive to steal phones. There was a specific update that the NYPD pointed out reduced iPhone thefts significantly. But, I do…

It hasn't had a chance to impact the secondhand market yet. The laptops with the T2 chip are relatively new, and aren't getting decommissioned & recycled in significant numbers. It will be a tremendous waste when they are. Those laptops will still be valuable for some parts, but considering now that not only the RAM is soldered to the motherboard, but the SSD too... there's not going to be much left to use. I find th…

> It hasn't had a chance to impact the secondhand market yet.

I do think we're talking about different secondhand markets--or at least different large sections of it. Buying/selling working Macs aren't affected. That's the only one I've ever dealt with. I do think I was wrong above about non-working Macs--I do think there will be no resale value if they had a T2 chip.

> I find the "theft" argument very hard to swallow...

Multiple cities cited 25-35% drop when activation locks were rolled out. Personally, I've only had iPhones stolen before this. I do think most are crimes of opportunity, but a large chunk, especially if they're stealing multiple phones, know how they're going to unload them. But, I don't think this T2 repair thing is relevant. I don't imagine thieves parting off stolen phones because it's not worth it. Even organized crime.

I do agree Apple has misrepresented the situation and right to repair is one of the few topics I write to my representatives about.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#803

Post by agsamek »

harha wrote: post #747
hummo56 wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly what OP meant: you need to A) trust that in your actual laptop in front of you, this mechanism is correctly implemented. B) trust that you are not in the vulnerable phase where your LED broke and you did not notice yet. (Especially when you rarely use your camera).

Regarding B: I’m wondering if the camera or the led typically break Would first with a higher probability

It is extremely unlikely (in the human terms - not possible) that LED would break in such a way that it transmits the power and not emit light at the same time.

Of course the LED can be installed in a parallel connection on the circuit, but I read the op statement as it is not the case.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#804

Post by moe »

saagarjha wrote: post #573
moe wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity... Do the doors at Apple HQ have locks? Or is there just a little LED next to them that lights up when they open?

There is a little LED that lights up when they open. The door latch is controlled via software and so is the light, though I would assume in the case of power failure they'd unlock for fire safety reasons.

Ok. So there is not only a LED, but a physical latch.

I think Apple's building security architect should have a conversation with their camera security architect.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#806

Post by xyzzyz »

rocqua wrote: post #801
saagarjha wrote: post #780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Newer Macs will also require the light to come on for a lot least a few seconds when the camera activates.

That sounds like the led is controlled by logic, instead of being in the power loop.

You could connect the led to a capacitor, which would be charged when camera is connected to power, and would discharge powering the led for a few more seconds after power is disconnected.

But yeah, I wouldn’t trust a led, because I can’t reverse engineer the circuit that’s in my particular device.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#807

Post by saagarjha »

harha wrote: post #787
saagarjha wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now if apple were to release an os Level protection that automatically pulls up a screen showing what is shared from the view of the camera and asks for that approval, that would improve this situation. That doesn’t help for the attack that many people are using here, which is if the software on your machine is compromised.

I didn’t refer to that concern, that’s a different discussion - in a corporate setting the policies might help avoid that by limiting what can be installed. where they don’t help is accidentally activating the camera and only realizing afterwards. That’s a UX issue with so many different video conference technologies that all behave slightly differently.

Yes, I think that’s a legitimate concern. I can’t say I haven’t started videoconferencing software with a thumb over the camera ;)

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#808

Post by dkarbayev »

pabs3 wrote: post #789
bloody-crow wrote: post #648

This statement has a number of issues. First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's impos…

Fourth, lights are not accessible to blind persons, but switches or covers potentially can be.

This one is one of the most solid points. Remember Tim Apple saying "When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind, I don't consider the bloody ROI."?

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#809

Post by astrange »

soulofmischief wrote: post #478
astrange wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The camera quality is pretty obvious just by making Webex calls on a laptop. I don’t actually know if getting extra equipment is popular, just seen howto articles recently on dpreview. Fujifilm and Canon have added webcam support to their DSLRs though, which is interesting.

I don’t actually know if getting extra equipment is popular Then why did you make the claim? You're willing to say things without knowing their validity just for the sake of argument? This is just detracting from the conversation without actually adding anything useful.

> You're willing to say things without knowing their validity just for the sake of argument?

Yes. I believe this is the ideal way to post because it gives other people the pleasure of replying to you. It's a community service.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#810

Post by zumu »

soulofmischief wrote: post #160

If you close your Mac notebook with a camera cover installed, you might damage your display because the clearance between the display and keyboard is designed to very tight tolerances. Doesn't this sound like an engineering oversight and not a user error? Why are camera covers not just part of the design? My phone camera physically retracts when not in use.

More design oversight than engineering oversight.
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