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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#801

Post by Idontknowmyuser »

s73ver_ wrote: post #729
dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

"It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth." That's just it; it really did not. It contained a lot of things that people who aren't members of those groups he targeted think are plausible. "I do think that men and women are biologically different and, it likely does contribute to a lack of interest in tech from women. " And what, specifically, would those differences be?

a - Women have a higher capacity at empathy (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19476221)

b - higher capacity of empathy might be in part to biological: "Testosterone may reduce empathy by reducing brain connectivity" http://www.psypost.org/2016/03/testosterone-may-reduce-empat...

c- people who have a higher level of empathy might be interrested in fields which need a higher level of empathy, or seek to join fields that directly interact with people [ I don't have a source for this one. It seems logical to me, but it is unproven. if you know a study that proves or disproves it. Please link it]

d - higher levels of women interessted in other fields leads to less women interrested in tech

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#802

Post by emerged »

lnino wrote: post #559

The merit (or lack thereof) of his claims and views matter little in this case. The case is visible enough and touches on politically relevant points enough so that there will be tons of people on both sides willing to fund this case all the way to supreme court. Then there is the problem with how damaging discovery would be to the company. It will probably will get settled fast, with Google paying him a few years wo…

I wouldn't be surprised if his intention is to take this further than just a settlement. There's a great deal of social momentum pushing for Google to be accountable for this whole debacle at a larger scale than that, and Damore is positioned to play the hero archetype on that front.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#803

Post by jacksmith21006 »

stale2002 wrote: post #771
jacksmith21006 wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about politics. It is about basic human decency. There have been some that have since they to make it a social political thing. But the courts do not care about such things. You could never have someone like Damore on a team once they shared such an opinion. He should have kept it in his head. Why now nobody will hire him.

I mean, the law is the law. The person I was responding to specifically suggested making politics not allow at work. This suggestion is illegal. California law is extremely pro employee.

Actually California is very pro employer and maybe what you meant?

Google obviously has a lot of reasons to fire Damore but they do not even need a reason.

Former Google engineer sitting at home unemployed and unable to find a job supports he should have been fired.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#804

Post by jacksmith21006 »

Clarencewhorley wrote: post #666

Going to be great when the Department of Labor comes in and had some conservations with Google and their HR team members. It's all fun and games until the Labor department starts dropping fines that go up every day till it's fixed and they get execs on the record. Have fun

Google has zero to worry about. It is California so Google does not even need a reason. But come on! You could not have Damore in your ranks with his views and considering he is sitting at home unemployed unable to get a job supports it.

Who would want someone with his views on a team with women?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#805

Post by Idontknowmyuser »

andrewprock wrote: post #779
stcredzero wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short, yes. You should look up the book which is cited in this video, and you should listen to the discussion of the prologue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw Since the human brain and its interaction with culture is very complicated, more research is needed. But a fair reading of what we have so far would seem to indicate: it's both. Beware of ideological just-so stories that make you feel good. Also,…

It looks like there is only indirect evidence, and no direct evidence. In fact, the whole discussion smells far too much of "correlation means causation" to get anything useful out of it. There are some great weasel words like: "there is good evidence ... play a role ..." Without a hypothetical mechanism, this is all quite speculative.

ok what about this "Sex differences in brain size and general intelligence (g)" (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289616...)

"Abstract

Utilizing MRI and cognitive tests data from the Human Connectome project (N = 900), sex differences in general intelligence (g) and molar brain characteristics were examined. Total brain volume, cortical surface area, and white and gray matter correlated 0.1–0.3 with g for both sexes, whereas cortical thickness and gray/white matter ratio showed less consistent associations with g. Males displayed higher scores on most of the brain characteristics, even after correcting for body size, and also scored approximately one fourth of a standard deviation higher on g. Mediation analyses and the Method of Correlated Vectors both indicated that the sex difference in g is mediated by general brain characteristics. Selecting a subsample of males and females who were matched on g further suggest that larger brains, on average, lead to higher g, whereas similar levels of g do not necessarily imply equal brain sizes."

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#806

Post by jacksmith21006 »

vorotato wrote: post #90
dmitrygr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In California, workplace discrimination due to politics is illegal [1] In USA, discrimination due to sex is illegal. [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

Yes, discrimination against men, and or white people is illegal. They can show though that they hire plenty of white men. You are correct in California you cannot discriminate against employees due to politics, however I'm sure they'd be able to show they hire plenty of republicans. It is also an uphill battle for Damore since he'd basically be claiming that he was discriminated against at the same time as arguing th…

Problem is that it had nothing to do with politics. Did you not see the memo and what Damore wrote? Nobody could have kept Damore around and the proof is nobody will hire him.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#807

Post by wpietri »

gizmo686 wrote: post #674
wpietri wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'd add that there's evidence (and plenty of anecdote) that the men who most object to diversity are not so good at what they do. Which makes sense; they are the ones who have the most to lose from an increased talent pool. [1] Personally, I'd be very interested to see Damore's code. We already know that he lied about both a PhD and being a chess master. [2] I would not be shocked at all to find out that he's not…

From the complaint: "23. Damore was diligent and loyal, and received substantial praise for the quality of his work. Damore received the highest possible rating twice, including in his most recent performance review, and consistently received high performance ratings, placing him in the top few percentile of Google employees. Throughout the course of his employment with Google, Damore received approximately eight per…

Yes, I'm sure Damore claims he was excellent. But claims of excellence do not correlate perfectly with actual excellence. And neither do promotion packets; I'm sure we've all worked with somebody who did better on paper than was justified.

So I'd still like to see his code. And talk with some of his coworkers.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#809

Post by dlp211 »

vowelless wrote: post #403
ryguytilidie wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, Joe Rogan is considered a right wing youtuber? I listen to his show all the time and I'm a pretty big liberal and while he sometimes does the whole "everyone is sooooo PC now" thing, he also talks negatively about Trump, the GOP and right wing politics constantly. I also listened to the James Damore episode, and while I thought James did a good job of making his point and Joe did an AWESOME job of interviewing…

As I mentioned, I don't disparage "right wing". I actually enjoy Joe Rogans podcast, and also Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson. All three of them are solidly classical liberal, which is probably right of center today (individualism vs. collectivism, equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome, etc). But AFAIK, damore never came to the young Turks, Chapo trap house, which are leftist podcasts. I could be wrong.

I'm sorry but I need to call this out. There is no difference between equality of opportunities and equality of outcomes for any significant population size. The latter is a direct consequence of the former; and anyone that believes we are close to having equality of opportunities in America is wilfully ignorant.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#810

Post by dguaraglia »

verroq wrote: post #222
lukev wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

There is a difference between women are on average less capable (or what your interpretation seems to imply - women programmers are worse than men) and what is written which are there may be less qualified female candidates due to biological differences. The latter is an obvious statement however people seems keen to deliberately misinterpret it to fuel their rightous outrage. I’ll use high jump as an example. Suppos…

The problem with this argument is that while high-jumping is an obvious function of physical traits that may be more prevalent in males, it's not that easy to draw a straight correlation - let alone complete causation - for career selection.

Damore's manifesto purports to present evidence that there "maybe" are inherent differences between genders ("may" and "might" are also sprinkled all over the place for good measure.) He even acknowledges that this is far from a complete picture. But then he goes on to conclude that:

1) That must explain the existing gender distribution in engineering

2) Google trying to explore doing outreach to increase diversity must necessarily imply discrimination of the unfairly oppressed white heterosexual male

So trying to dismiss all criticism by splitting hairs over whether he meant that the average, the median, or all women are uninterested in engineering completely misses the point that either way the conclusions are unwarranted. The whole thing smacks of persecution complex first, finding "evidence" later.

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