The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution • Hacker News Board

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#81

Post by Animats » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 9:29 PM UTC

shanusmagnus wrote: post #61

Animats wrote: post #25

The US used to have that. You can still see the remnants if you look. Rotary International, Kiwanis International, the Independent Order of Foresters, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, the National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry - all those secular fraternal organizations still exist. The core of these organizations was small business owners, a group which once ran their…

I just ran into a Independent Order of Odd Fellow lodge a couple weeks ago, while visiting a new city (Decorah, IA). I thought: what the hell is that? A little googling revealed the underlying ethos of the organization to be highly attractive, but from what I can glean from the website the whole thing seems to have fallen into decay. Pity. The 'pushback against big business' angle was news to me, though. Interesting…

"The 'pushback against big business' angle was news to me, though. Interesting perspective. Any references you could recommend to dig into that aspect?"

This history of the Texas Railroad Commission may be helpful.[1]

[1] https://www.tsl.texas.gov/exhibits/railroad/fight/page2.html

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#82

Post by MidasVO » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 9:30 PM UTC

_nedR wrote: post #26

avz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This need to be worshipped is what I found to be the most bizarre characteristic of deities. Seriously, why would someone who can create space, time, universe and everything care the slightest bit about whether or not a bunch of Homo sapiens perform all these weird acts that worshipping entails? Too needy.

Maybe the need is not for God but for us?

Or maybe it's all made up

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#83

Post by dwaltrip » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 9:30 PM UTC

thetrumanshow wrote: post #27

avz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This need to be worshipped is what I found to be the most bizarre characteristic of deities. Seriously, why would someone who can create space, time, universe and everything care the slightest bit about whether or not a bunch of Homo sapiens perform all these weird acts that worshipping entails? Too needy.

In the specific case of Jehova, Eph 2:7 addresses this question: "So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus." -NLT

How does that answer the question? Can you break it down simply?

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#84

Post by rpearl » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

thetrumanshow wrote: post #27

avz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This need to be worshipped is what I found to be the most bizarre characteristic of deities. Seriously, why would someone who can create space, time, universe and everything care the slightest bit about whether or not a bunch of Homo sapiens perform all these weird acts that worshipping entails? Too needy.

In the specific case of Jehova, Eph 2:7 addresses this question: "So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus." -NLT

This is just begging the question--why does she need to be able to point us out in all future ages in the first place? What use does that have?

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#85

Post by Qantourisc » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 9:39 PM UTC

hiphipjorge wrote: post #67

Personally, this really resonates with me. Growing up Catholic (but later abandoning it), I find that the sense of community you get out church is pretty much unrivaled by anything else. I do miss that. The relationships you have with friends, family, coworkers, people who you share a hobby with, etc. is just different. Also, growing up in a religious environment, you are used to thinking about things higher than you…

When you give it up, you give up religion _and_ community. So maybe we need the Church of Morality ?

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#86

Post by Elrac » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #39

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do people become less religious only because of a rejection of the supernatural, or for other reasons as well? Sociologically, people mostly become less religious when they feel that they control their own fate, and feel no need to ask for divine intervention. Hence why societies grow less religious as they grow rich and egalitarian , while highly unequal and/or poor societies have a tendency towards greater levels…

What makes you think it's because of a sense of control, as opposed to, say, increased education? This correlates highly with increased wealth.

Gregory Paul and Phil Zuckerman have investigated this question by teasing out correlations like this. Their conclusion, as discussed in [1] and [2] is that three factors correlate well with a drop in religiosity: (a) egalitarianism (i.e. not being in a rat race against the Joneses and also not suffering the lifelong indignity of being substantially less well off than others), (b) freedom from financial and other catastrophes (as provided by a socialistic-leaning society) which does away with the need for a Big Brother to help you out and correct the injustices, and (c) education as you suggest. Education is helpful but the other two factors apparently rank above it.

[1] http://www.epjournal.net/articles/the-chronic-dependence-of-...

[2] http://edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#87

Post by jrcii » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

davesque wrote: post #22

jrcii wrote: post #5

What we "need" is for people to worship Jesus Christ and get their butts to church.

Why do we need that? Reasons, please.

Salvation

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#88

Post by cmurf » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

callmeed wrote: post #77

Animats wrote: post #25

The US used to have that. You can still see the remnants if you look. Rotary International, Kiwanis International, the Independent Order of Foresters, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, the National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry - all those secular fraternal organizations still exist. The core of these organizations was small business owners, a group which once ran their…

My father-in-law is very involved with the local Rotary where we live. I've attended a few meetings and play in the annual golf tournament. I've recently thought that they need to adapt in order to attract younger people (I'm 40 and I feel young around them) or a new organization needs to start (see my other comment in this thread). What I like about the group is they build real, face-to-face relationships with one a…

Maybe some joint effort with rotaries and young professionals networks? There are quite a few YPNs, and while their interests are aligned, the YPNs I don't think really talk much in terms of codes of honor or social engineering (political, not hacking).

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#89

Post by mahyarm » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 10:08 PM UTC

hyperion2010 wrote: post #2

Boy, that list looks pretty similar to the principles of Unitarian Universalism (full disclosure, born and raised). The suggestions are good but if we look at the history of the Unitarian Universalism it was heralded by various scholars as the secular religion for the coming enlightened future. None of that has happened and the fastest growing religious communities these days are fundamentalist, evangelical Christian…

Sadly, it's probably the lack of a us vs them tribalistic segment. Everyone loves to root for 'their' home sports team, and that other rival sports team sucks a lot, their bad guys.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#90

Post by Elrac » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 10:16 PM UTC

The author accepts as a given that religiosity correlates with better health. There are numerous studies that support this, after all. This is "received wisdom."

So I think this is a good time to point out that there's some new science on the subject. According to [1] which points you to [2], the above holds true only within societies where religiosity is the norm. The USA, being the most religious among prosperous Western countries, is not quite by coincidence the country where most such studies are conducted. In skimming one of many articles on the work of renowned expert Dr. Harold Koenig, I happened to note that one of the communities he sampled was in Texas.

The picture becomes different, apparently, when you consider countries or regions where "God" is not a household word. There, this effect isn't observed. The author of [2], published just this month, concludes that "the health and longevity benefits of religiosity are restricted to highly religious regions."

So sure, people who go with the flow are less likely to be stressed, more likely to be happy and healthy. But this seems to be a benefit of social conformity, not religion.

[1] https://richarddawkins.net/2015/07/link-between-religiosity-...

[2] http://spp.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/07/09/194855061559...