Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin) • Hacker News Board

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#81

Post by almaIV » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:00 PM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

"most modern tumblerites aren't willing to get in the streets with a bandanna and a baseball bat"

Probably because this is a really stupid course of action to begin with, independent of tumblr.

Using baseball bats to reinforce your political views seems like a great idea until your opponents show up with guns. Which means you, now, have to show up with guns, and so on, until you're a full-on terrorist group.

Well, that and you risk going to jail for assault with a deadly weapon, and you don't want to be in the same cell with someone from the Aryan Brotherhood when they find out your reason for jailtime was assaulting white power groups.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#82

Post by cactusface » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

> But if I could flip a switch and make every man feel the persistent, gnawing fear that a woman has of men, I would in a heartbeat.

There's not much point in railing against racists / sexists / etc. if you're going to make equally condescending generalizations about the victims you're trying to save.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#83

Post by defen » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:17 PM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

Ted Kaczynski was wrong about a lot of things, but reading this I can't help but think he was correct in his diagnosis of the ills of modern leftism (power process, feelings of inferiority, oversocialization)

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#84

Post by csense » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:17 PM UTC

nemo wrote: post #13

While Moldbug holds hideous political views, if the talk is on tech. and doesn't overlap him advocating hideous things, then this is akin to the old Hollywood blackballing, the excuse for dropping him was pathetic, and I agree that promoting a culture of free speech must be a core value of a liberal society. I'm pretty far-left (though more liberal than leftist), and found the black-and-white leftist-bashing in the a…

> while pretending we're all some monoculture, which is ludicrous

Actually, progressives do seem to be relatively monocultural when it comes to, as the article says toward the end, "tolerating everything except the outgroup." Either that, or the intolerant faction(s) are very dominant and end up getting their way quite a lot.

As well as the examples cited in the article, another good example is Brendan Eich being forced out as chief of Mozilla due to having political views that some progressives deemed to be "incorrect."

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#85

Post by mindslight » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:26 PM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

> But if I could flip a switch and make every man feel the persistent, gnawing fear that a woman has of men, I would in a heartbeat.

Would it not be better to work towards nobody feeling such fear?

> I'm also happy that these people are achieving real victories ... their friends ... are campaigning against some law that will inevitably pass

Once again championing (any) change itself over sane outcomes. Oppressive laws and the march of the machine are inevitable, so let's just fight each other?

Your comment is a poignant example of everything gone wrong with the "progressive" mentality. Thank you for being candid though.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#86

Post by defen » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:27 PM UTC

davidgerard wrote: post #37

Kelly2 wrote: post #29

To play devil's advocate, a conference is not only about the speeches, but also about the people you can meet there. Inviting Moldbug bring not only his own person but also his followers. It's understandable if your goal is to foster a diverse crowd to not invite a group of people who constantly argue against any kind of modern society.

To be fair, neoreactionaries are mostly notable for their startling lack of real-world achievements. Yarvin is exceptional in this regard. (Tunney has disclaimed "neoreaction" of late.) They tend to have extensive blogging credentials, however. (And are a dab hand with an occasional cheese dip.) edit: if there are others with notable real-world achievements, I will eagerly accept correction.

Peter Thiel? I don't think he's ever come out and explicitly said "I am a neoreactionary", but he did say "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible," and the co-founder of Tlön (company that is making Urbit) is a Thiel fellow.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#87

Post by scintill76 » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:29 PM UTC

lrc wrote: post #71

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you call left. I bet someone that seriously proposed violence against some institutions or industries would get disinvited. Animal rights extremists or eco-terrorist organizations might fit that bill too.

I thought of eco-terrorism too. But then I thought of William Ayers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

As a counterexample? Does he fit here? Does he speak mostly on politics rather than other topics? Then again, his political beliefs/actions are so polarizing that maybe it's hard to separate them from his work in other areas (somewhat akin to what the organizers of Strangeloop claim in their case.)

Does Noam Chomsky get heat for his political views? I was amused when I realized the Chomsky I'd heard about in CS classes was the same person I'd read about in political news. I guess his views are more palatable to the people criticizing Mr. Yarvin.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#88

Post by davidgerard » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:31 PM UTC

defen wrote: post #86

davidgerard wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, neoreactionaries are mostly notable for their startling lack of real-world achievements. Yarvin is exceptional in this regard. (Tunney has disclaimed "neoreaction" of late.) They tend to have extensive blogging credentials, however. (And are a dab hand with an occasional cheese dip.) edit: if there are others with notable real-world achievements, I will eagerly accept correction.

Peter Thiel? I don't think he's ever come out and explicitly said "I am a neoreactionary", but he did say "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible," and the co-founder of Tlön (company that is making Urbit) is a Thiel fellow.

I didn't count him as he didn't claim the word "neoreactionary", as cited. Though yeah, his ideas correlate pretty closely.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#89

Post by lrc » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:46 PM UTC

scintill76 wrote: post #87

lrc wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought of eco-terrorism too. But then I thought of William Ayers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

As a counterexample? Does he fit here? Does he speak mostly on politics rather than other topics? Then again, his political beliefs/actions are so polarizing that maybe it's hard to separate them from his work in other areas (somewhat akin to what the organizers of Strangeloop claim in their case.) Does Noam Chomsky get heat for his political views? I was amused when I realized the Chomsky I'd heard about in CS class…

I would say that if being part of a bombing campaign isn't an impediment to becoming a Distinguished Professor at UIC, then being part of a bombing campaign isn't enough to get him disinvited from StrangeLoop either, however many astonished tweets might have greeted his appearance on the program: becuase, in that case, it would have been easy for the organizers to separate his political thought from his educational thought. Of course that's speculation on my part.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#90

Post by convexfunction » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:50 PM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

So you think that being scared is evidence of fascism, misogyny, racism, or similar? No legitimate reasons to think what's happening is terrifying?

How terrifying.