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Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

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Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#81

Post by hullo »

anon808 wrote: post #75
hullo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.

Or maybe they would've removed it, and until they did left it uncovered. Neither of us know what they would've done. Not sure what China or France doing things has to do with how we do things in the US.

Well I can tell you 15 years ago Giuliani would have been up there with a sledgehammer himself taking it down, holding a press conference, and vowing the harshest consequences possible once the perpetrators were tracked down. By that scale can we say that the state of democracy in the US is actually greatly advanced?

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#82

Post by superobserver »

Estragon wrote: post #61
Semiapies wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the entire list of CIA field agents and their covers around the world" Not released. Not even plausibly given to "Greenwald & Co." It's telling that you jump to a ridiculous supposed analogy of endangered CIA field agents when we're talking "operations" safely carried out in secure server farms, cubicles, and offices.

I think it was an act of desperation to some extent. People had already been convincingly reporting the broad outlines of NSA's surveillance activities for the better part of a decade and no one seemed to care. It probably took an extended, highly specific information dump to get people to take notice.

I'm not entirely sure it's merely a matter of getting people to take notice. After all, if you take notice, then the agency itself will take notice of that and that is liable to make you a target for information gathering purposes. Your best defense out of fear is to proclaim anyone fighting such a power is deserving of that power's treatment as it deems fit. In a way, I guess you could say it's a form of Stockholm Syndrome.

On the other hand, when you have state powers like China to contend with (who have a greater degree of explicit control over their citizens), it wouldn't be surprising to see state-level competitors wanting to keep a leg up on their competition by employing similar tactics. Unfortunately, the dragnet in place is unconstitutional for the NSA, which is why it is a part of the Five Eyes to work around that issue - by relying on collaboration with other institutions to provide the data that is ultimately being collected.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#83

Post by rhino369 »

hackuser wrote: post #73
rhino369 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. The only illegal things he disclosed was that some NSA agents/employees illegally used their tools to track ex-gfs and stuff. All the rest is completely legal. The country had a public debating about warrantless wiretaps and congress wrote laws about it. The NSA follows those laws. He released the information because he…

> The country had a public debating Much of what he released was unknown to the public. I think that his stated purpose was to enable and spur public debate on those previously unknown practices.

The metadata wasn't disclosed, but the NSA was doing warrant-less wiretapping during the Bush administration without even any oversite from FISA courts.

The only real surprise to me was the metadata they were using.

But even then we knew about §215 of the patriot act.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#84

Post by yellowapple »

happyscrappy wrote: post #76
bsimpson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will get even better when Diane Feinstein orders us to take the model off the Internet.

Or when she orders the death penalty for anyone who prints it! /s

I don't think a sarcasm tag applies here; I wouldn't hold such a thing above the likes of her.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#85

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

jronald wrote: post #40

Coopting memorials this way bothers me, especially in the case where the person being idealized would have been against it. I do appreciate the relevancy of the memorial being used. Using the location and its history as a running point for a demonstration / gathering would have been more impactful as well as being respectful to the purpose of the memorial.

>>"They fused it to part of the Prison Ship Martyrs Monument, a memorial to Revolutionary War soldiers."

I'm not sure that the Prison Ship Martyrs would have minded. And I disagree that hosting a "demonstration / gathering would have been more impactful as well as being respectful". It certainly wouldn't have been more impactful, as I am fairly confident that I wouldn't have even heard of it had that occurred. As for disrespecting the monument, I can imagine war heroes preferring temporary or even permanent defacement of their memorial as preferable to the memorial remaining in tact while freedom is destroyed instead.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#86

Post by rosser »

rglover wrote: post #35

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz . Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.

So it would be shameful of me to cover up your political speech when it's inflicted upon my property without my permission?

Look, I emphatically believe in what Snowden did (though I may have some quibbles with his methods, his reasons were exemplary). I don't think that justifies what amounts to glorified — if tastefully done, and in keeping with the aesthetics of the monument — vandalism.

This is a war memorial. How might it feel to those who have lost loved ones in one of this country's innumerable wars, to have the monument to their loss, their sacrifice, appropriated for someone else's speech?

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#87

Post by hristov »

hullo wrote: post #55
rglover wrote: post #35

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz . Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.

If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.

I don't think so. If it is something unauthorized they probably would have removed it in due time. I.e., they would have taken a couple of days to hire professionals to do it. Now they immediately cover it up so that no-one can see it while they arrange for its removal. Why? Obviously they do not want anyone to look at it before it is removed. But why not? It is certainly not offensive in any way. It may prove to be a minor attraction and it will get Brooklyn in the national news.

It really does remind one of soviet style suppression.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#88

Post by jessaustin »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #71
borgia wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like they put it up around 6am and it was covered over around noon. I hope, for the sake of the work that went into the piece, that it isn't destroyed.

That's amazing. Now if only the public works department could respond to potholes that quickly.

Maybe we could just start spraypainting Snowden's face in and around potholes? If it worked, the general public would know Snowden only as the pothole-fixing guy. No jury would ever convict! b^)

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#89

Post by pharke »

hullo wrote: post #55
rglover wrote: post #35

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz . Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.

If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.

Do you have examples of precedent where this occurred in the U.S.? If not, you're simply speculating based on your own opinion/mood/blood sugar level.

Graffiti is rarely covered up so quickly unless it is found to be particularly offensive. My personal belief is that this statue was deemed to be politically offensive and inciting as well as likely to draw media exposure and so was quickly removed from view even though this is not a required step in the process of restoring the monument to its former state.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#90

Post by Someone1234 »

borgia wrote: post #39
rglover wrote: post #35

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz . Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.

>The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks. It really is. The facade of democracy is very quickly being peeled back to reveal something utterly terrifying. The response from the people has been the most disappointing and depressing thing though. The random sampling in NYC, of all places in the US, by Oliver's show was a brutal reminder of the mindset of the average person there.

Ignoring the republic/democratic state distinction, the US's democratic status has always been weak due to FPTP (ditto with the UK). It is essentially a system designed to keep the majority from even running and to keep the minority opinion silent.

If the US (or UK) cared at all about democracy like they always claim they'd move to something better (e.g. Open list, party list, full on proportional representation, or a number of other alternatives). Heck even run off voting (i.e. multiple votes) in FPTP is superior like the Alternative Vote.

But instead we have FPTP, and why? So we have this revolving door of "sameness" and monied politicians. Essentially bribery and corruption exist in the West, they're just completely legal and out in the open.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_cou... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_repres... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

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