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OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

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Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#81

Post by TehCorwiz »

nyolfen wrote: post #78
krapp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can a more open platform for sellers without the stigma of illegal activity be realized? Probably not. Cars weren't invented to make bank robberies more difficult to stop. These networks were invented, to a degree which shouldn't be dismissed when considering their acceptance by the mainstream, to make enforcing laws against trading in anything more difficult, if not impossible. I think most people (not most people…

it's also worth considering that while existing middlemen are slightly more expensive they also offer strong consumer protections that are totally absent in these alternatives

OpenBazaar uses a three-way transaction. Buyer, seller, mediator. Only two keys are required to release or revert the transaction. In the event of a dispute The mediator is the final judge, they're supposed to decide based on evidence whether to release th payment to the seller or refund the buyer. I do not recall off-hand what the selection criteria is for the mediators, but I believe that it's not in the control of either party.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#82

Post by tikhon »

joshschreuder wrote: post #75
mike_hearn wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should reconsider integration of Tor. This is quite likely to end badly for you. If the police reports are true SR2 had 150,000 users: if even a fraction of those decide to migrate to OpenBazaar at some point, any legitimate usage will likely be overwhelmed by illegal usage. That would put you in the unenviable position of being the next DPR, except not anonymous (Silk Road sold books as well as drugs but…

I'm not sure it's equivalent. What you're saying is that whoever wrote the stack that SR used should be prosecuted for facilitating the site's creation. This is simply a project in the same way BitTorrent is a project - it can be used for many things, illegality being just one, and even if that is the main usage pattern (which isn't clear at this point), that's no reason for the creator to be punished.

Tell that to the creator of cryptocat

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#83

Post by csandreasen »

dionyziz wrote: post #35
Touche wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

OpenBazaar developer here. This is the "nothing to hide" argument that we've seen used to much by the NSA and governments. The answer is that we believe people simply have the right to privacy in trade. Here's a discussion by the OpenBazaar team on the matter: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/OpenBazaar/issues/189 Do you want your credit card company to know exactly where you've shopped for the past two years? Would you…

> Please, I invite you to post your credit card records for the past year here. We'll be happy to look over them and leave some comments for you. After all, you've got nothing to hide, yes?

That's a ridiculous counter argument. If I buy a bunch of towels/etc. from an online merchant, I have every reason to believe they will not use any information they gather to publicly embarrass me or otherwise do me ill will. Their business relies on them not abusing their customers. If they showed any indication that they aren't trustworthy, I wouldn't do business with them.

On the other hand, I don't have any reason to trust someone on the internet requesting my credit card records in exchange for the privilege of being publicly embarrassed when they post it on the internet. The argument is never "I've got nothing to hide", the argument is that I have no reason to hide my Amazon purchases from Amazon.

Most of your examples are either non-issues or not realistic. My credit card company does have a right to see how much and where I'm spending - I'm borrowing their money when I make a purchase. I don't know of any service I use that sends my porn history to my boss (unless I decided to do it at work on computers owned by my employer). I don't know of any supermarket discount program that prevents you from shopping elsewhere - every rewards program I've ever seen is structured to encourage you to shop with them more, not punish you for shopping elsewhere. My wife has every right to scrutinize our bank account - if I didn't trust her I wouldn't have married her. If she finds out what her birthday present was, that's her loss for ruining the surprise, not mine. My annoying jealous nephew can get over himself - if he wants to come on trips with me then he needs to be less annoying.

If I don't want any of these things posted publicly on the internet, I a) won't post them publicly on the internet, and b) won't share the information with anyone that I don't trust to refrain from posting it publicly to the internet. Anonymity is not the same as privacy - privacy comes from keeping personal information to yourself.

So, to reiterate the grandparent poster asked, why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#84

Post by s_q_b »

arthurcolle wrote: post #79
s_q_b wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to insulate the user from the Bitcoin transaction entirely. It should look to the user like they're paying in local currency. Unfortunately, we're not there yet. We know how to create an automated p2p currency exchange, we think. But nobody's done it yet.

oh yeah? you have a repo I can check out?

Uhm no. Wasn't that the entire point of my comment?

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#85

Post by nl »

krapp wrote: post #34
jasode wrote: post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

>Can a more open platform for sellers without the stigma of illegal activity be realized? Probably not. Cars weren't invented to make bank robberies more difficult to stop. These networks were invented, to a degree which shouldn't be dismissed when considering their acceptance by the mainstream, to make enforcing laws against trading in anything more difficult, if not impossible. I think most people (not most people…

For a long time Alibaba.com was a haven for counterfeit goods. Some argued that was its primary purpose (and indeed there were hints of racism in this - claims that the Chinese did no original work etc.)

You can still get some counterfeit goods on Alibaba. That didn't stop the platform becoming valuable for legitimate purposes too.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#86

Post by xorcist »

paulhauggis wrote: post #36
expr- wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends. Individuals generally need not pay tax for selling their private property.

I'm not sure where you live, but this is not the case nearly everywhere in the US.

No, you're probably thinking of sales tax.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#87

Post by mike_hearn »

joshschreuder wrote: post #75
mike_hearn wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should reconsider integration of Tor. This is quite likely to end badly for you. If the police reports are true SR2 had 150,000 users: if even a fraction of those decide to migrate to OpenBazaar at some point, any legitimate usage will likely be overwhelmed by illegal usage. That would put you in the unenviable position of being the next DPR, except not anonymous (Silk Road sold books as well as drugs but…

I'm not sure it's equivalent. What you're saying is that whoever wrote the stack that SR used should be prosecuted for facilitating the site's creation. This is simply a project in the same way BitTorrent is a project - it can be used for many things, illegality being just one, and even if that is the main usage pattern (which isn't clear at this point), that's no reason for the creator to be punished.

Nope. PHP is overwhelmingly used for ordinary, legitimate websites and has no particular features designed to aid criminal usage. It's all about volume and intent.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#88

Post by 3838 »

mike_hearn wrote: post #67
SamPatt wrote: post #24

Hey HN, this is Sam Patterson, operations lead on OpenBazaar. Please note that this open source project is about 6 months old, and not production ready. It has just started integrating Tor, but should not be considered private or secure yet. We welcome testers, we are about to release 0.3.0 sometime in the next few days. Our Github is here: https://github.com/openbazaar/openbazaar We've gotten a lot of attention from…

I think you should reconsider integration of Tor. This is quite likely to end badly for you. If the police reports are true SR2 had 150,000 users: if even a fraction of those decide to migrate to OpenBazaar at some point, any legitimate usage will likely be overwhelmed by illegal usage. That would put you in the unenviable position of being the next DPR, except not anonymous (Silk Road sold books as well as drugs but…

if each transaction has to involve a mediator i suspect they would be the one in the frame when it comes to facilitating illegal activity

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#89

Post by adekok »

Touche wrote: post #25
jasode wrote: post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

> Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

Yes. When I sell towels, I put my business reputation on the line. Not my personal one. The customers don't know my real name.

Tell me this. When was the last time you knew the full name of a store clerk you interacted with? The name tag might say "Sally", but is it really "Sally"? Or is it "Sally Smith" or "Sally Jones" ?

You don't know, and you don't care. All you know is you went to a business (with a prominent name and location), and bought a towel. If you're happy with the towel, you'll go back. If not, you'll write bad reviews.

At no time do you know the full name or address of the store clerks you interact with. Therefore, it is completely appropriate for the clerks to demand the same level of anonymity online.

Now, this isn't always true. You might have a neighborhood hardware store you've been going to since you were 5. You might know the full name and home address of the owner. But that is his choice. It is entirely inappropriate for you to demand to know his full name and address, or to forbid him from operating behind an anonymous "Hi, I'm Bob" nametag.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#90

Post by giggles_giggles »

101914 wrote: post #76
jasode wrote: post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

Interesting that you used the example of eBay. I remember reading about the alleged reason eBay acquired Skype. Skype is a peer to peer network. The guys behind it were the guys behind Kazaa, an earlier peer to peer network. In Skype's case, the network is used to send audio and video. In Kazaa's case the network was used to send "files". If I recall correctly the article said eBay planned to use the Skype network to…

Microsoft owns Skype, not eBay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype_Technologies
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