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OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

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Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#71

Post by bostik »

krapp wrote: post #63
jasode wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> , I also think it would be disingenuous to state that their use in illegal activities is somehow orthogonal to their purpose. The Haber Process[1] was a new way to manufacture ammonia in large quantities. Fritz Haber was originally motivated by Germany's war objectives to kill people via poison gas and explosives. Germany needed a lot of synthetic ammonia to do that. Now, the Haber process is mass producing fertili…

>It's possible to divorce the original evil uses of the technology from the later good ones. Yes, but I would argue that doing so in this case means undermining the entire purpose of an anonymous, decentralized marketplace. The first question most people are going to want an answer to when presented with something like OpenBazaar is "what are you going to do about the pedophiles, gun-runners, drug dealers, etc?" If t…

> The first question most people are going to want an answer to when presented with something like OpenBazaar is "what are you going to do about the pedophiles, gun-runners, drug dealers, etc?"

And the answer is simple: treat them as early adopters. Learn from their needs, and find out how they attempt to game or break the system. (They certainly will.)

No, I'm not trying to be flippant. For ANY new, more privacy-minded tehnology, you have to expect that the dubious and/or illicit users will flock to it first. They are the ones who will actively seek out the communication and exchange mediums that are hard to monitor. Their presence will then act as a catalyst for media to write about the technology, effectively taking it from the fringes to mainstream.

PGP. Tor. Bitcoin. Hell, even the attacks on encrypt-by-default storage technology in mobile phones. The fearmongering of the law 3-letter agencies and the media's need to find new monsters under the bed all act as drivers for more widespread knowledge, and eventually through acceptance to adoption.

The pendulum swings, and right now it's starting the backswing towards more privacy-minded approaches.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#72

Post by mindcrime »

psykovsky wrote: post #23
XorNot wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And again, illegal.

Not every law/tax is fair or should even exist in the first place. You don't change things by being complicit.

I think I just down voted you by accident. Sorry. :-(

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#73

Post by ghodith »

ertdfgcb wrote: post #61
wyager wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody is protecting you from yourself. They're trying to protect other people from the damage you can do as an addict, a child pornographer, or a terrorist. This is patently false. Counter-examples include A) non-addictive, very safe drugs are also illegal B) NYC tried to outlaw large sodas C) unpasteurized milk is illegal.

Just because you can pull out three (or any number) examples of shitty laws doesn't mean he's wrong.

Except for the fact that the OP claimed "Nobody is protecting you from yourself." To which the person you responded to directly disputed with examples.

I think you need to re-evaluate what you classify as incorrect.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#74

Post by mappu »

sanswork wrote: post #60
SamPatt wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenBazaar uses 2-of-3 multisig, meaning that the buyer doens't send funds directly to the seller but instead sends it to a Bitcoin account that is jointly controlled by three parties; the buyer, the seller, and a trusted third party called a notary. Both parties agree to the notary, and then in order for the funds to be released from the multisig, any two parties must agree on how the funds are released. In a normal…

How will they be able to prove anything though? The seller could send an empty box. They'd have a tracking code then "proving" they'd sent the item. The buyer could claim it was an empty box but the 3rd party wouldn't be able to know if it was or not. A scammer would just have to ensure they cycle 3rd parties so their actions aren't noticed(or cycle accounts). What's to stop that?

That (fraud) is a problem for current ecommerce too. It can be addressed in part by reputation systems.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#75

Post by joshschreuder »

mike_hearn wrote: post #67
SamPatt wrote: post #24

Hey HN, this is Sam Patterson, operations lead on OpenBazaar. Please note that this open source project is about 6 months old, and not production ready. It has just started integrating Tor, but should not be considered private or secure yet. We welcome testers, we are about to release 0.3.0 sometime in the next few days. Our Github is here: https://github.com/openbazaar/openbazaar We've gotten a lot of attention from…

I think you should reconsider integration of Tor. This is quite likely to end badly for you. If the police reports are true SR2 had 150,000 users: if even a fraction of those decide to migrate to OpenBazaar at some point, any legitimate usage will likely be overwhelmed by illegal usage. That would put you in the unenviable position of being the next DPR, except not anonymous (Silk Road sold books as well as drugs but…

I'm not sure it's equivalent. What you're saying is that whoever wrote the stack that SR used should be prosecuted for facilitating the site's creation.

This is simply a project in the same way BitTorrent is a project - it can be used for many things, illegality being just one, and even if that is the main usage pattern (which isn't clear at this point), that's no reason for the creator to be punished.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#76

Post by 101914 »

jasode wrote: post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

Interesting that you used the example of eBay.

I remember reading about the alleged reason eBay acquired Skype.

Skype is a peer to peer network. The guys behind it were the guys behind Kazaa, an earlier peer to peer network.

In Skype's case, the network is used to send audio and video.

In Kazaa's case the network was used to send "files".

If I recall correctly the article said eBay planned to use the Skype network to allow buyers and sellers to communicate with each other, directly.

It's also interesting you mentioned SMTP. I do not think I have ever seen anyone mention it online but SMTP works well over a peer to peer network.

Peer to peer SMTP obviates the need for intermediary SMTP servers and third party "email providers". With peer to peer networking there is no necessity for users' data to be stored and forwarded by third parties.

Not to suggest anyone would be interested in that.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#77

Post by nine_k »

jasode wrote: post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

A part of the problem is that something truly secure will equally be useful for legitimate and illegitimate uses. There's no way to make a safe that only keeps honestly earned money. Any solution with a backdoor added exclusively for use against bad guys is inherently unsafe, and this will bite good guys sooner or later.

This article explains this in greater detail: http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/06/tools-for-treason/

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#78

Post by nyolfen »

krapp wrote: post #34
jasode wrote: post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

>Can a more open platform for sellers without the stigma of illegal activity be realized? Probably not. Cars weren't invented to make bank robberies more difficult to stop. These networks were invented, to a degree which shouldn't be dismissed when considering their acceptance by the mainstream, to make enforcing laws against trading in anything more difficult, if not impossible. I think most people (not most people…

it's also worth considering that while existing middlemen are slightly more expensive they also offer strong consumer protections that are totally absent in these alternatives

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#79

Post by arthurcolle »

s_q_b wrote: post #57
doctorfoo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you underestimate the average Joe's desire to save a few dollars... The key barriers I see are having to install special software and getting to grips with Bitcoin. Perhaps it is possible to ship a client with some default blacklisting of certain products, sellers etc, if a person wants to avoid stumbling by accident across such stuff. (Maybe even such blacklists would become updated and mandated by law.)

You need to insulate the user from the Bitcoin transaction entirely. It should look to the user like they're paying in local currency. Unfortunately, we're not there yet. We know how to create an automated p2p currency exchange, we think. But nobody's done it yet.

oh yeah? you have a repo I can check out?

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#80

Post by wcummings »

gwern wrote: post #50

Keep in mind, a lot of people are hyping OpenBazaar more than it deserves or is helpful. The basic question about OB no one has answered is: assuming they get it up and running and with a good security model, why will the mass of black-market - or legal - users ever use it, when using Amazon or something is easier and more familiar? You may say that they'll use it so they don't have to worry about police, except blac…

Sellers might prefer it
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