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India’s Downward Spiral

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Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#81

Post by scrollaway »

skrebbel wrote: post #71
virtuabhi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is true. We are definitely not near the US standard on the defense of free speech. But the case you mentioned is one of the small number of such cases (I remember one from the state of West Bengal). And in this case, the over eagerness of local authorities was criticized by both the government and public. As of now, I would place India somewhere between UK (with its defamation laws) and US (gold standard of…

I think it's absolutely nuts that you're being downvoted into oblivion. The fact that these crackdowns were criticized widely is a good contribution to the debate. It appears that there's people in this thread who downvote anyone who's from India and doesn't think things are as bad as suggested.

Or maybe people downvoting him don't think that saying the UK is worse than a country that jails people for liking facebook posts is a sensible addition to this conversation. YMMV.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#82

Post by slaxman »

A couple of points.

1. This is old (2012). There was a major government change in May 2014. The earlier government censored a lot of stuff. Mainly because their performance was below average and they did not want people talking about it.

2. The new government (led by Prime Minister Modi) is very oriented. (Checkout the central attendance system implemented by them in a couple of months: http://attendance.gov.in/). They have been pushing for broadband internet connectivity in villages.

IMHO This is not as applicable today as it was 2 years ago.

My $0.02

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#84

Post by cubancigar11 »

bipin-nag wrote: post #57
nhaehnle wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you properly understand what "hacker" means in this context? I think it's fair to say that some people in the grey to black spectrum also attend the CCC, but overall, yes, people there are genuinely committed to free expression (by everybody, most importantly of course by innocent people). They are using the word "hacker" in the original sense of the word (tinkering with technology etc.) What you're sayi…

It is a community meet, hosted by Europe's largest association of hacker. It is not an official gathering of human right leaders, they act on selfish interests. Are they known for their humanitarian efforts, certainly not. If anything they would break and work against the security measures, malicious or not depends on them. Through the entire meeting, they mocked the laws, quoting from handful cases which you have be…

My wife has left me. And my phone is getting surveilled. Don't ask me how I know it. What do you think I should do? - An Indian in Varanasi. BTW, there is no complaint against me and I am being visited by police every week.

Ground reality is a bitch.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#85

Post by imaginenore »

Banning "offensive" materials was a huge mistake that will haunt them for decades. Why? Because anything can be offensive.

Bacon article? A Muslim gets offended.

Computer article? A Luddite is offended.

Photos of art? A blind man is offended.

That rabbit hole is infinitely deep. Oops I just offended rabbit lovers.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#86

Post by cubancigar11 »

infinity0 wrote: post #80
thewarrior wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Westerners don't understand that Eastern societies place far greater emphasis on respecting existing social norms/ structures and the idea of "order" . This is there even in the Indian Constitution. The govt. is allowed to impose restrictions on fundamental rights in order to maintain order and harmony. First Amendment absolutism is totally out of the question in the Indian context.

No, we understand it. It doesn't mean it's a good thing to do, or that we agree with it and won't criticise it. Also, I am from the East though I grew up in the West, and the attempt to deflect criticism just on the basis of "it's a different society" is disgusting, a hindrance to progress, and frankly quite racist. There is an ongoing campaign in India against the practice of dowry, I guess you also want to argue "W…

I was with you until you started talking about dowry, proving once and for all (literally, for everyone who reads your comment) that you have no clue about India.

There is hardly any problem related to dowry. Come, have a look. 'Dowry' exists in media which consists of third grade students turned women-right activists.

For mathematically minded people, I will just quote recent supreme court judgment about the reality of dowry and dowry harassment lawsuit (498(a) IPC):

"The simplest way to harass is to get the husband and his relatives arrested under this provision. In a quite number of cases, bed-ridden grand-fathers and grand-mothers of the husbands, their sisters living abroad for decades are arrested. "Crime in India 2012 Statistics" published by National Crime Records Bureau, Ministry of Home Affairs shows arrest of 1,97,762 persons all over India during the year 2012 for offence under Section 498-A of the IPC, 9.4% more than the year 2011. Nearly a quarter of those arrested under this provision in 2012 were women i.e. 47,951 which depicts that mothers and sisters of the husbands were liberally included in their arrest net. Its share is 6% out of the total persons arrested under the crimes committed under Indian Penal Code. It accounts for 4.5% of total crimes committed under different sections of penal code, more than any other crimes excepting theft and hurt. The rate of charge-sheeting in cases under Section 498A, IPC is as high as 93.6%, while the conviction rate is only 15%, which is lowest across all heads. As many as 3,72,706 cases are pending trial of which on current estimate, nearly 3,17,000 are likely to result in acquittal."

I suppose 85% acquittal rate is just collateral damage, except that dowry was exactly how women used to get their parental property rights in India! But that is too Indian for Indians educated in western schools. So instead of codifying dowry as mandatory to protect women's rights from being infringed by her family, feminists would rather use misandry and enable women to vent their frustration on her husband. So we got ridiculous laws like dowry harassment lawsuit (1983) and dowry prohibition lawsuit, and then they realized that husbands demanding dowry is actually a rarity and reality is not at all as media would like to have use believe. So finally they passed equal property rights for women in 2005.

Bit by bit, you know. There is a reason why villages in India give an impression of being lawless.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#87

Post by [deleted] »

skrebbel wrote: post #71
virtuabhi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is true. We are definitely not near the US standard on the defense of free speech. But the case you mentioned is one of the small number of such cases (I remember one from the state of West Bengal). And in this case, the over eagerness of local authorities was criticized by both the government and public. As of now, I would place India somewhere between UK (with its defamation laws) and US (gold standard of…

I think it's absolutely nuts that you're being downvoted into oblivion. The fact that these crackdowns were criticized widely is a good contribution to the debate. It appears that there's people in this thread who downvote anyone who's from India and doesn't think things are as bad as suggested.

[deleted]

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#88

Post by [deleted] »

bipin-nag wrote: post #57
nhaehnle wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you properly understand what "hacker" means in this context? I think it's fair to say that some people in the grey to black spectrum also attend the CCC, but overall, yes, people there are genuinely committed to free expression (by everybody, most importantly of course by innocent people). They are using the word "hacker" in the original sense of the word (tinkering with technology etc.) What you're sayi…

It is a community meet, hosted by Europe's largest association of hacker. It is not an official gathering of human right leaders, they act on selfish interests. Are they known for their humanitarian efforts, certainly not. If anything they would break and work against the security measures, malicious or not depends on them. Through the entire meeting, they mocked the laws, quoting from handful cases which you have be…

[deleted]

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#89

Post by Ma8ee »

3838 wrote: post #36
virtuabhi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time I have seen UID scheme being mentioned as a surveillance tool. The aim of the scheme is to replace the outdated mechanisms - signature, name and address papers which can easily be forged. Why poor people are encouraged to register under the UID scheme? So that the benefits provided by India's socialist governments (central and state) can reach them without any corruption or delay. The fear of i…

other governments have proposed similar things - in europe there is a widespread distrust of these systems because they were used very effectively by the Nazi's - record keeping in the Netherlands was very good - 75% of jews were killed, in france the people collecting data conspired to protect jews by not punching the jew slot on the punched card and only 25% were killed a belgian company sold an ID system to the rw…

We have had Personal identity number system in Sweden since 1947. Maybe because we where spared most of the atrocities of WWII I don't know of any strong resistance against it. But it is also combined with laws that strongly forbid registration of some types of information, such as ethnic group or political leaning.

And it is oh so convenient! I'm moving in a few weeks, and I had to fill in a form on a website and the tax authorities sent me some papers to sign and return. And that is all! Now all government agencies, the banks and larger companies that I deal with, and all magazines I subscribe to will have my new correct address in their system within days.

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