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A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

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Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

William Poundstone, author of how would you move mt Fuji, is not a programmer, so that's not entirely surprising.

And his book isn't on programming interviews.

It is more or less a collection of puzzles used in programming interviews (in that particular book, at Microsoft). He has another titled "Are You Smart Enough to Work at Google?" Similar concept, both focused on programming interview puzzles.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#82

Ok, something about this story seems a bit amiss. Gayle Laakmann is complaining about people thinking she is a recruiter, supposedly because she's a woman. Hmm, I'm curious - who is this person? How does she portray herself? Are there any other possible reasons people might view her as someone working in the general HR space? http://www.gayle.com/consulting/ I can't imagine why a consultant who helps with "Technical…

If you read just that, okay fine. But if you're going to the front page of the website, you'd also see PROGRAMMER there. (Way to, by the way, cherry pick examples. Why not use this page? http://www.gayle.com/projects/ Oh, right, because it doesn't prove the straw man you'd built.) But that wasn't the example referenced. The example referenced about doing a talk on coding topics (data structures, algorithms, code) for…

Why not use that page? The link is buried in the "writing" dropdown. To even find the link I had to "view source", which I only did after you pointed it out.

I went to your homepage, and "programmer" is just a small piece of the subtitle. I look at your first 6 panels, 4 of which (the leftmost 4) are about recruiter/interview stuff, 1 is programming, and 1 is "other". I scroll down to your blog and books, and everything on the homepage is about recruiting or interviewing.

If the vast majority of your homepage is recruiting, it's hardly unreasonable to think you are a recruiter. That's true even if you slap the word "programmer" and "CS degree" in a couple of places.

If you believe your webpage portrays you as a programmer, I suggest you might want to work on your messaging. Consider the possibility that your in-person messaging is similarly off.

(Of course, you seem pretty successful as a recruiter/author/interview coach, so perhaps leave the messaging as is and just be more aware of it.)

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#83
post #80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have this a bit wrong. If ability is normally distributed for a given sex (and the mean of the ability of the same), then it is true that there would be more above-average male programmers than female programmers - just as there are more male programmers than female programmers at any skill level. If you are provided a skilled programmer, they are most likely male. And if you are provided any programmer, they are…

[deleted]

I don't know if you meant for your argument to be applicable to Gayle, but if so... well, it is not applicable. People only knew her gender and assumed she was not skilled because of it.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#84
post #3

Title should probably be changed from "We Don't Just Need More Women in Tech, We Need Fewer Assholes" to "A hilariously sad tale of gender bias." (Not sure if I should put a spoiler alert or something.) The author of a popular series of books on preparing for technical interviews was upset that, after talking about code for an hour, people assume that she's a recruiter, rather than a programmer. I'll try not to make…

It is entirely possible that she spent an hour talking about code from the perspective of programming interviews. Were I to have heard such a perspective I might have assumed the talker was an expert in tech recruitment rather than a programmer/coder by trade. It wouldn't be a sign of disrespect, an expert in recruitment and interview techniques is hardly less worthy than an expert programmer.

The real question is If a male and a female talked about coding interviews for an hour, would the audience ascribe to them the same title, I suspect the answer is probably "no".

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#85

Ok, something about this story seems a bit amiss. Gayle Laakmann is complaining about people thinking she is a recruiter, supposedly because she's a woman. Hmm, I'm curious - who is this person? How does she portray herself? Are there any other possible reasons people might view her as someone working in the general HR space? http://www.gayle.com/consulting/ I can't imagine why a consultant who helps with "Technical…

Also, who cares what field she says she's in? She's clearly making a lot of money on her books, why doesn't isn't she considered primarily an author? I don't think it's a problem that there aren't enough women who say that they are programmers. I think the issue is gender bias in the workplace seemingly causing a lack of women in technology rolls.

The example referenced is actually about someone asking "So when you were a recruiter at Google, ..." This is after a talk I gave on coding that covered data structures, algorithms, etc.

If someone refers to be as an author now, that's totally fine.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#86
post #80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have this a bit wrong. If ability is normally distributed for a given sex (and the mean of the ability of the same), then it is true that there would be more above-average male programmers than female programmers - just as there are more male programmers than female programmers at any skill level. If you are provided a skilled programmer, they are most likely male. And if you are provided any programmer, they are…

[deleted]

But you were responding to a quote ">Woman. Probably not a good coder"

Which would imply the probability of a woman being a good coder was lower from the probability of a man being a good coder.

This is quite different to the probability of a good programmer being a man being higher than the probability of a good programmer being a woman.

I mean, the probability of a good programmer being swedish isn't that high but it doesn't tell you much about the quality of programming in Sweden.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#87
post #69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you say nobody is doubting her ability because she is female? RTFA! Yes, of course you can doubt people's ability regardless of their gender, but it doesn't happen regardless of gender, it happens because of gender. People start out thinking: "Woman. Probably not a good coder. Ah, see? She knows about job interviews! She's a recruiter! Not a programmer at all." Had it been a man, they'd be: "Hey, this program…

[deleted]

> edit: downvoters can't handle the truth?

No, your logic is flawed. Let's say there is a population of 1,000 male programmers, with a normal distribution of IQ (mean 100, S.D. 15), and therefore 15.87% are at or above 1 sigma. That's 159 male programmers, more or less, regarded as exceptional.

Let's further say that we have a population of 100 female programmers with exactly the same statistical breakdown, with 15.87% above 1 sigma, reflecting the IQ stats for the population as a whole, male and female. This makes 16 female programmers, more or less, regarded as exceptional.

This means (a) there are more exceptional male programmers by count than female programmers, but it also means that (b) statistically, a selected male programmer is likely to be equal to a selected female programmer, and the more programmers you compare, the more equal the outcome becomes.

Mathematically:

emp / tmp = efp / tfp = 15.87%

Where:

emp = exceptional male programmers

tmp = total male programmers

efp = exceptional female programmers

tfp = total female programmers

This means that your claim above:

> So the male candidate is probably better a coder most of the time.

Is perfect nonsense, and coincidentally calls into question the presumed intellectual superiority of males.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#88
post #80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have this a bit wrong. If ability is normally distributed for a given sex (and the mean of the ability of the same), then it is true that there would be more above-average male programmers than female programmers - just as there are more male programmers than female programmers at any skill level. If you are provided a skilled programmer, they are most likely male. And if you are provided any programmer, they are…

[deleted]

Sure, but that point is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Which is probably why you keep getting downvoted.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#89
Is this sexism or is it just generalization? The vast majority of (white) women I've spoken to from tech companies are recruiters. And generalizations are very useful, in general. I doubt everyone thinks about how much coding knowledge a recruiter would have. At what point is it "sexist" (and, presumably, bad) to assume something given past experiences?

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read just that, okay fine. But if you're going to the front page of the website, you'd also see PROGRAMMER there. (Way to, by the way, cherry pick examples. Why not use this page? http://www.gayle.com/projects/ Oh, right, because it doesn't prove the straw man you'd built.) But that wasn't the example referenced. The example referenced about doing a talk on coding topics (data structures, algorithms, code) for…

Why not use that page? The link is buried in the "writing" dropdown. To even find the link I had to "view source", which I only did after you pointed it out. I went to your homepage, and "programmer" is just a small piece of the subtitle. I look at your first 6 panels, 4 of which (the leftmost 4) are about recruiter/interview stuff, 1 is programming, and 1 is "other". I scroll down to your blog and books, and everyth…

... but that wasn't the situation described. This isn't about someone going to my webpage - or to a particular subpage - and concluding "recruiter".

This is about someone talking to me AFTER A TALK ABOUT CODING and starting a sentence with, "So when you were a recruiter at Google, ..."

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