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Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

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Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#81

Post by the_watcher »

steven2012 wrote: post #64

Are these the actions of a company that intends to stay in business? I would hazard a guess that the answer to that question is "No." Who would be foolish enough to keep their money with mtgox after 3 weeks of silence, and now with them seemingly erasing their footprint off the Internet? Even the worst businessperson would know their actions are jeopardizing their viability as a business. So, based on that assumption…

I have a very small amount of Bitcoin in Mt. Gox. If it never returns, it won't have a material effect on me. However, I'd obviously prefer to send it to another exchange. If anyone has new information on whether they'll ever come back online, I'd be really interested.

Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#83

Post by 300bps »

steven2012 wrote: post #64

Are these the actions of a company that intends to stay in business? I would hazard a guess that the answer to that question is "No." Who would be foolish enough to keep their money with mtgox after 3 weeks of silence, and now with them seemingly erasing their footprint off the Internet? Even the worst businessperson would know their actions are jeopardizing their viability as a business. So, based on that assumption…

Everything they are saying and doing is pointing to a negative outcome. Everything they are not saying and not doing is pointing to a negative outcome.

For examples of what they are doing, they have shut down withdrawals of any manner, they have moved their offices, they have erased their twitter presence.

Thing they have not done: state they are solvent. How simple of a thing for them to do - "hey, we have a security problem right now but don't worry, we are completely solvent." Instead they state things like, "Withdrawals will resume soon." That's not very specific - it could mean, "Withdrawals of 3 cents on the dollar will resume in a year and then you can make a claim to the bankruptcy court to get anymore. Good luck with that."

But let's say that all these signs pointing to a negative outcome turn out to be wrong and a positive outcome occurs. Then it's time to really investigate a current theory that they are purposely lowering the market price of Gox BTC so they can buy low and sell high on other exchanges.

Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#84

Post by cheez »

stingraycharles wrote: post #76
cheez wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in the current EU/US political climate, MtGox would be bailed out, meaning people who didn't invest their money with MtGox would be forced to make the people who did whole. Whereas in the current BitCoin climate, the investors suffer and will be forced to sue MtGox to reclaim their money. Which is morally better? No libertarian will tell you that either of these is a preferred outcome, but out of the two, the mora…

MtGox is an exchange, not a bank. I'm mentioning this because there is an important third person with a bank: the customer, not the investor. With mtgox, every customer is an investor. When bailing out a bank, however, the rationale is often to help out the people who cannot be blamed: the customers. I'm still not claiming that bailing out I banks is a good thing, but the comparison you make is a small apples/oranges…

This sounds a lot like the too big to fail argument and so it is not an apples/oranges thing. It's a sliding scale and the only reason it seems like it is apples and oranges to you is precisely because MtGox isn't big enough.

I'm not saying that customers of a bank should suffer for the investment side but let the investors suffer for their bad investments, if the political will is there.

Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#85

Post by fooqux »

blazespin wrote: post #41
verroq wrote: post #27

IMHO, this is a ruse. Only Gox knows if they are going under or not. By playing up the trend of bad news, they are forcing down the prices of Gox BTC which they can buy up at extremely generous prices. The more they make it look like they are screwed, the cheaper people will sell. Thus they can keep this facade up for months. As long as they don't go under, they profit.

It's also possible they're not doing this out of greed but as a way to actually rescue their company. They may owe a lot of money and the only way they can make it through this without going under is by buying all the bitcoin back at a low value. The question is, how far do they go, and how much of the retained earnings do they commit to rescuing the company and how much of these retained earnings have already found…

That is an interesting thought, except they would have zero trust or goodwill left with the community. They might be able to rescue the company financially but I don't see any chance of the company surviving after that.

Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#86

Post by pmorici »

scottcanoni wrote: post #71
pmorici wrote: post #29

Check out the recent update to this YouTube video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP1YsMlrfF0 Apparently liquidity problems and solvency problems are different problems, who knew.

This Youtube video was recorded and published on July 17th, 2013. It does NOT pertain to recent events.

The text in the info section was updated in the past few days, that is the interesting part not the old video. The guy in the video is an investor in Gox so he would be in a better position than most to know what is really going on.

Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#87

Post by patio11 »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #78
muyuu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what they deal with. MtGox is a financial services provider registered with the Japanese FSA that transmits money in multiple "recognised" currencies (AUD CAD CHF CNY DKK EUR GBP HKD JPY NOK NZD PLN RUB SEK SGD THB USD). They are subject to Japanese law and International law. And also to US and EU law regarding AML/KYC of their citizens. Bitcoin might not be regulated in most places to different deg…

>>They are subject to Japanese law and International law. And also to US and EU law regarding AML/KYC of their citizens. Is there any legal precedent for this? What would you sue Mt.Gox for? Do they have contracts or some form of binding agreement with people who store their BTC with them? I'm not sure they're really bound by any laws in regards to currency. Maybe contractually, but beyond that, not sure what you cou…

You typically sue a company over torts, not crimes. A tort is a civil cause of action. "They deprived me of my property in a fashion we had not agreed upon" is a tort called conversion. There exist many other ones you could describe Mt. Gox as having committed. Japan and the US are friendly first-world nations; their courts routinely enforce each others' judgments. (You'd have to demonstrate tortious behavior in the US to the satisfaction of a Japanese court, which might not be straightforward, but that's the sort of thing you'd want to ask an actual Japanese lawyer rather than somebody with a cursory understanding of the matter.)

That said, most people hoping for recourse in a court of law do not understand the expense, timeline, and likelihood of actual collection involved. (Six figures, years, and "probably nil", respectively.)

Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#88

Post by roc »

nikcub wrote: post #31
gojomo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, destroying evidence once a lawsuit is filed is a definite no-no. But what's one more no-no in a career of no-no's? An account compromise is possible. Perhaps they're about to take some steps they'd previously publicly assured people they wouldn't, and don't want the obsolete assurances to be easy-to-reference.

old lawyer advice: "the only good time to destroy evidence is before it becomes evidence"

Which is the line they use when advising you to establish a good data-retention-policy. Because any one-time 'reduction' effort is trivially connectable to intent by just about any court. Even when it's innocent.

Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#89

Post by muyuu »

smtddr wrote: post #79
muyuu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what they deal with. MtGox is a financial services provider registered with the Japanese FSA that transmits money in multiple "recognised" currencies (AUD CAD CHF CNY DKK EUR GBP HKD JPY NOK NZD PLN RUB SEK SGD THB USD). They are subject to Japanese law and International law. And also to US and EU law regarding AML/KYC of their citizens. Bitcoin might not be regulated in most places to different deg…

MtGox isn't exactly FDIC(or whatever Japan's equiv) insured. What are you going to sue for? Who told you it was okay to buy these digital coins? I love Bitcoin, but I'm not denying the fact that it's essentially gambling[1] and I accept full personal responsibility for losing my own funds. Trusting any of these unregulated exchanges is part of the gamble. If the law did try to say MtGox has liability, I wonder how th…

Me personally? for nothing. Are you assuming I have a vested interest on my position?

The reality is that they are registered AND they also transmit USD, EUR, etc (see list above) which they can't retain indefinitely as they are doing.

Be very sure they are in violation of the law, whatever they say.

Re: Mt.Gox's tweets are all gone

#90

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #25
SwellJoe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good theory...they may be figuring out that they can't possibly provide what they've promised, and are wanting to not have an easy trail of evidence of exactly what has been promised. But, I don't think deleting things from Twitter has ever been considered "destroying evidence" in court. But, I suppose there's a first for everything. Usually, it'd be manipulating or deleting emails that have been subpoenaed,…

It's also likely that Twitter still retains a copy of the Tweet even when deleted, and will be asked for copies during the discovery process if it comes to a lawsuit.

The Library of Congress periodically archives public tweets. http://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2013/01/update-on-the-twitter-archi...
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