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A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

jeffarchibald.ca

81–90 of 323 posts

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#81

I work 40 hours a week at maximum - most weeks I work about 34 to 38 hours. You 80 hours a week guys, what the hell are you doing with your time? Are you divorced? No family? No friends? Is 'disrupting' an industry really that important to you?

My name is Rick and I'm a 80 hour a week guy. I'm 26, single, and have no pets. I have a family and friends, but I'm very transparent about my work habits and priorities as a full-stack engineer. Being so young, I see myself as training to be the person I want to be in the future. The best programmers in the world worked at it relentlessly. Sure, there are variances in the amount that they all worked, and some did it…

Here's another perspective.

I had that exact same attitude when I was 26 and single and had no pets. "I'm going to get awesome at embedded C++ programming, work my ass off in my 20s so I write world-changing software in my 30s and I can retire in my 40s." No pain, no gain, live at work, 80 hour days, all night caffeine and coding sessions. F-yea! I'm a varsity software jock training for the Career Olympics!

Almost 2 decades later, a family to take care of, a little fatter, a little less healthy, a lot more tired, I look back and what difference did it make? There are a bunch of gadgets out there with my software in it. Am I retired? No. Did I change the world? No. Did I invent the next Linux? No. At least for the companies I worked for, my tireless efforts made the shareholders a bit more money, but that's about it.

Look at it by the numbers. Suppose 1 out of every 10,000 jobs out there offer you the opportunity to reach whatever your goals are (ultra-wealth, change the world, create something awesome, whatever your goal is). I think 1 out of 10,000 is EXTREMELY generous given all those "opportunities" out there to build yet-another CRUD web app or yet another B2B IT portal or yet another crappy plastic consumer product. The career lifespan of a software engineer is (again generously) 40 years. If you're an extreme job hopper you can probably try something new once a year. So you have 40 at-bats.

So,

P(home run) = 0.0001

N = 40

P = 1 - (1-P(hr))^N = 1 - (1-0.0001)^40 ~0.4%

So the likelihood of you lucking into that one life-changing opportunity throughout your entire career as an engineer is minuscule. Unless you really think you can both identify the next Facebook before it happens and land a job there while they're tiny. A lot of people think they can do that. A lot of people also think they can pick stocks, predict horse races, or read tea leaves.

I'm not writing this to discourage you, but do understand that the extreme hours you are putting in now are a bet against enormous odds. Don't end up a jaded burnt out 40 year old engineer.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#82

This false dichotomy is seriously getting annoying. If 60 hours is sustainable for you, do it. If only 30 hours is sustainable for you, do that instead. But stop imposing onto others what is right or wrong when there are so many factors at play. Some of my most productive memories are summers studying and working for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week (= 72 hours). I didn't get tired, burned out, or anything. Another summ…

Statistics tell a different story. There were numerous studies on productivity relative to many measures. Then again, you know, you might be a actual snowflake...

[Citation needed]

I've gotten the following list of citations in the past, which suggest that the 40-60 hour regime is (aggregated over many workers) optimal for construction:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7089557

But I've never seen anything even remotely suggesting that an individual needs to be an "actual snowflake" in order to productively work more than 40 hours. Since you claim there are "numerous studies", please cite a few.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#83
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't about disrupting an industry. It's about money.

The art of working though is to earn as much money as possible whilst doing the least amount of work. 60 hour a week people haven't got that idea yet.

Who says that's the "art of working" though? Why not "make as much money as possible while enjoying what you do" or "enjoy what you work on while making as much money as possible" or just "make as much money as possible no matter what" or "just enjoy my work as much as possible no matter how much money I make"?

I think the "art of working" is deciding what kind of work you want to do, how big a part of your life you want it to be, and then doing that.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#84
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm Adam, 27, married with a two year old and one more on the way. I commend your efforts and wish you luck. Some small percentage of people who start out down the path you're on make it to the end as true technical experts. All I will do is put in a word that most people who start down that track don't finish, but they still get a chance to change the world. Their chance comes through the coworkers they mentor,…

So most people don't make it. Do you really think that you're telling him something he doesn't already know? Some people are served well by humility, others aren't. Just because humility and practicality works for you (and me, I might add) doesn't mean that it's the approach for everyone.

I just want people to see that there are many paths to a fulfilling, excellent life. In this community, we have so many models of two of those paths--making FU money, or achieving technical mastery--and so few public models of other options, like the patient parent, the spouse to an emotionally-troubled partner, the upstanding community member, etc.

I understand that some people people who attempt one of these goals will fail through lack of effort, intelligence, or luck. But I want to help people not devote their lives to one of these goals just because they don't see the other options or know themselves well enough to see that they're working hard in the wrong direction. I don't judge or disagree with anyone's informed choice, but you can't be informed if you only see two models of success and not other roads to a happy life.

I just thought I'd post a public reminder, and hope a few people find it useful.

(Edited: pretty sure it was clear what I meant, alexeisadeski3, but made it even clearer.)

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#85

This false dichotomy is seriously getting annoying. If 60 hours is sustainable for you, do it. If only 30 hours is sustainable for you, do that instead. But stop imposing onto others what is right or wrong when there are so many factors at play. Some of my most productive memories are summers studying and working for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week (= 72 hours). I didn't get tired, burned out, or anything. Another summ…

Statistics tell a different story. There were numerous studies on productivity relative to many measures. Then again, you know, you might be a actual snowflake...

You might be an over-generalizing, OCD-obessed quant who is often wrong as No True Scotsman ever is.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#86
What seems to be misunderstood is that working more than 40 hours per week isn't the problem. It's what and where one is working and how much they value their time. I regularly work and study well over 50+ hours per week but not all of it is on my primary job. I also work on personal projects, small side jobs, learning new skills, etc. This whole concept is like the conversation a few years ago about the 5 o'clock developer. Our profession demands a great deal of time and dedication but that doesn't mean you have to subordinate your life to your employer. ---- For the people who think that chaining yourself to working 80+ hours to an employer is good, you need to step back and ask what do you think you're going to own after you finally burnout? Might setting up boundaries and investing in your own projects and external skills leave you with something you can own and take pride in or are you going to have to leave everything you've built behind and have no ownership when it's all said and done? I've been down that path and regret it. Learn to value your own time and invest that extra energy and time in building something for yourself.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire your passion and dedication to having a positive impact on the world. My challenge to you is this: What gives you confidence that the impact you'll have on the world will in fact be positive? Engineering certainly gives us the ability to impact the world. Increasingly and since the first industrial revolution power goes to the greatest engineers. But are the skills that give us the ability to change the worl…

To be fair to the poster you're replying to, he did mention reading Thinking Fast & Slow which is by the nobel prize winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman. That's no web programming manual.

> To be fair to the poster you're replying to, he did mention reading Thinking Fast & Slow which is by the nobel prize winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman.

When I read this, I realized something was wrong. Psychology isn't a science, and scientific Nobel prizes are awarded for scientific breakthroughs. So I looked it up and discovered that the psychologist Kahneman won the Economics Nobel, which makes more sense (economics isn't very scientific, but it's certainly more scientific than psychology).

A quick search reveals that a psychologist has never won a science Nobel for psychological work. As in the above example, the notable work of some psychologists is recognized by awarding a Nobel in a more scientific field, to avoid polluting the Nobel's reputation and opening the door to awards in any number of other pseudoscientific fields.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#88

I had a boss tell me at an end of year meeting that another employee had worked 1000 more hours that year than I had. I looked my boss in the eye and said "then he's doing something wrong". Consistent 60 hour weeks is a failure of management and of the employee to better manage their time. Especially if you are salaried.

You happen to work in an industry where working weekends and overtime is the exception. That's not always the case.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#89
What seems to be misunderstood is that working more than 40 hours per week isn't the problem. It's what and where one is working and how much they value their time. I regularly work and study well over 50+ hours per week but not all of it is on my primary job. I also work on personal projects, small side jobs, learning new skills, etc. This whole concept is like the conversation a few years ago about the 5 o'clock developer. Our profession demands a great deal of time and dedication but that doesn't mean you have to subordinate your life to your employer. ---- For the people who think that chaining yourself to working 80+ hours to an employer is good, you need to step back and ask what do you think you're going to own after you finally burnout? Might setting up boundaries and investing in your own projects and external skills leave you with something you can own and take pride in or are you going to have to leave everything you've built behind and have no ownership when it's all said and done? I've been down that path and regret it. Learn to value your own time and invest that extra energy and time in building something for yourself.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#90
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't about disrupting an industry. It's about money.

Exactly. The thing is, people who make say $120k/year but work 80h weeks, are at exactly the same level of compensation / status / respect as people who work 40h but make $60k/year. This applies to salaried or consulting professionals of course; if you're working your ass off to build your own business and maybe hit big rewards in the future, it's a sensible choice. Otherwise, you're just busting your health and pers…

in most countries there are different taxation tiers, at that point working more to earn the same salary per hour become even less efficient
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